[tied] Re: *eH3k'u- 'swift; accipiter, doe, wind, hawk'

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, alex <alxmoeller@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > alexandru_mg3 schrieb:
> >
> > > > shyt& and sut& is from a long time considered having the same
> > > > origin=> see Rosetti, that is one of best source regarding

the

> > > > classification of the common Albanian-Romanian inherited
> lexicon
> > > >
> > > > I have explain you why above.
> > > >
> > > > So is not Orel the source of this idea: this is the common
> > > etymology
> > > > accepted today. And I don't see why we need to reject it.
> > > >
> > > > Marius
> >
> >
> > yet the words are phoneticaly different and one cannot put in the
> > same cup the "u" and "y" the "s" and "sh". In my opinion, the
> > meaning "mug" has nothing to do with the meaning of "doe" and the
> > "ciot, "ciutura" (also Alb. "shyt" ) is not related

to "ciutã"(Alb.

> > sutë).
> > On another hand, the Rom. "ciont" family is related to the adj.
> > "syt" in Albanian. To be honest, I guess in Albanian we have here
> > two words who evolved to the same form (being actually omonyms).
> >
> > to summ up:
> >
> > - Alb. sutë is the same word as Rum. "ciutã" (doe) probably from

IE

> > "*keu-t"
> > -Alb. "shyt" is the same word as Rum. "ciut(urã)"= mug
> > -Alb "shyt" (dull, edgeless) is the same word as derivatives of
> > "ciont/ciunti"( dull, edgeless). Presumably the lost of "n" here
> > made the two words in Albanian to look today identicaly. It

remains

> > to explain the "sh" in Albanian versus Rom. "c^" since there

should

> > have been an "s" less Rom. "c^" has another source here.
> > - Alb. "sutë" cannot be the same word as "shyt" due phonetic and
> > semantic aspect. My 2 cents here.
> >
> >
> > Alex
> >
>
>
> Alex,
> In Romanian we have c^ut m. c^ut& f. 'without horns' (with. the
> variant s,ut/s,ut)
> http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=ciut
>
> and c^ut& 'doe'
> http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=ciut~a
>
> 1. The two words a phonetically identical
> and
> 2. The 'doe' is a being "'without' horns"
>
> Based on this Rosetti consider them 'one and the same word' and I

go

> with him.
>
>
> Based on the Romanian forms the PAlb/Dacian? forms both

for 'without

> horns' or 'doe' goes to a *c^ (the dialectal variant *sh is

secondary

> and is a variant : why? because exists in Romanian too )
>
> The Explanation of the alternance c^/sh in this words is linked to
> the 'main alternance' ts/s in Romanian & Albanian :
> see Albanian sup < *tsup-i-,
> Romanian s^ambure / Alb thumbull
> Romanian sarb~ad / Alb tharb&d etc..
>
> Let's present you the situation
>
> 1. you know as I (see above), that in some Rom&Alb inherited words
> there is an alternance of ts/s (with not very clear explanation)

=>

> however this alternance is originated from an original *ts /c/ < *k'
>
> 2. this ts/s alternance yielded c^/s^ when follows by an w (also j)
>
> so only a cluster k'u: > k'wu > [ts/s alternance] > *tswu/swu > c^
> (uta:)/sh(u:ta:) => can lead us to a c^/sh alternance.
>
> And we have here a c^/sh alternance because Romanian c^ut and
> Albanian shyt has the same meaning ' without horns' and there is

no

> c^ /sh correspondance between Romanian & Albanian
>
> The 'doe' being saw as 'that one without hornes' => 'the cuted one'
> is also a logical output.
>
> First of all, we need to follow the meaning whenever is identical...
>
> So anybody that proposed another etymology here, needs 'to see'

that:

>
> 1. c^ut& means in Romanian 'without horns' and 'doe' in the same
> time
> 2. and to explain the c^/sh alternance in these words
>
> Marius
>

A common origin or Alb.shyt/Rom.c^ut (f.)c^ut& 'without horns' and
Alb.sut&/c^ut& 'doe' from an original *tsu: < PIE *k'uh- :

1. count for: the long u: , that have traces in Alb. shyt and
explains also the origin of *c^ as from *tsw (-> note that only a tsu
(< *k'u) remains tsu in Romanian)

2. next explains why the Romanian c^ut& has the double
meaning 'without horns' and 'doe'(< 'without horns one' < 'the cutted
one' < PIE *k'uh-to)

3. MORE IMPORTANT: count for 'the unusual' c^/sh alternance of
Romanian c^ut/s,ut 'without horns' (Note that Romanian has also the
variant s,ut for c^ut) and of Albanian shyt 'id.': based on
*tswu/*swu < from the *ts/s alternance -> as in
s^ambure/thumbull,sumbull ; sarbad/tharb&d etc...)


Finally: A Model that explains in an organic way, all the existing
words with their meanings and all the existing phonetic forms: is the
right one in my opinion


Marius