Re: Re[4]: [tied] Re: On the ordering of some PIE rules

I thought I'd make a few comments on this topic:

I live and grew up in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and everyone I've ever encountered distinguishes "poor" and "pore", the former as /pu(:)(&)r/, the latter as /po(:)r/ or /pO(:)r/. /o/ and /O/ are not distinguishable before /r/, and length is not phonemic in most varieties of Canadian English, I'm pretty sure. When I watch American TV I mostly hear "poor" as /pur/. My parents, on the other hand, who grew up in Trinidad and Tobago, rhyme "poor" and "pore" as /pO/ (/O/ is long but the length is not phonemic, it's really just the tongue position).

You're right about the Canadian pronunciation of "sorry", "borrow", "tomorrow", but I've heard that pronunciation on American TV as well. To me a major difference between American and Canadian pronunciation is in the pronunciation of the vowel in "hot", "caught", "cloth", "top", "law", which I hear as /A:/ in most American English (with the same vowel as in "far"), but in Canadian English is pronounced further back in the mouth and often with some degree of lip-rounding (the amount of lip-rounding varies from person to person and with degree of education). The difference is really quite noticeable and immediately identifies someone as American vs. Canadian. However, I've heard the Canadian pronunciation among some Americans as well. Also many Americans pronounce /ae/ as /Ea/ or /E&/ or /E:/ in all words, which you virtually never hear anywhere in Canada (/ae/ is lower and often further back in most varieties of Canadian English, except before nasals and /r/ where most easterners use the American pronunciation). But the Canadian pronunciation is also not infrequent among Americans I've heard on TV. I find California pronunciation to be most similar to my own Canadian pronunciation.

Andrew

"Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:

At 9:40:40 PM on Thursday, June 7, 2007, Rick McCallister wrote:

> In the US, the pronunciation is definitely /or/ and
> not /Or/.

This is meaningless until you explain what words you think
contain phonemes /o/ and /O/. In the Fromkin & Rodman
system, which is widely used for AmE, /O/ is the vowel of
<or> and <more>, and /o/ is the vowel of <so> and <code>.
In terms of phones rather than phonemes, the usual rhotic
U.S. pronunciation of <or> is definitely [Or], not [or].

> I have never heard anyone in the last 40 years or so
> distinguish pore and poor anywhere in the US.

And outside the south I have rarely heard anyone *not*
distinguish them in that time. (I'm 59.)

> In the Midwest, where I grew up pore and poor are
> pronounced the same,

The Midwest is a big place; I have no doubt that parts of it
had the poor-pore merger when you were growing up. Other
parts didn't.

> also in the NW and SW (where I lived many years) and in
> the Mid-Atlantic where I live now.

I was born in the Pacific Northwest, and both of my parents
were from there; I was quite startled the first time I heard
someone pronounce <poor> as if it were spelled <pore>.

Brian