Re: Latin is a q-Dialect having p- from kW , PIE is similar

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:

>
> On 2007-05-16 17:20, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> > Ahem. You have made your derivation more parsimonious by dodging
> > your own argument from pompe < *kWonkWe < *kWenkWe < *penkWe,
> > which is therefore also a three-step process.
>
> But if *kWénkWe is accepted for common Italo-Celtic (whether a true
> synapomorphy or an areal innovation), we get a neat scheme for both
> branches, with *pompe and <qui:nqe> derived from the same PIt. form.
> The overall picture _is_ parsimonious.

_As_ parsimonious.
Add Germanic to the mix, and it's my proposal.

> > But you're right about the (traditional) lack of *p in
> > Proto-Celtic. So I'll propose a scenario like this:
> >
> > I Some IE people lives next to a people who can't say kW but
> > substitutes p for it.
> > II That people takes a piece of the p-people's land and get new
> > slaves and girlfriends etc., who learn the new language, but say
> > p.
> > III Status: The High people are so disgusted with all these p's
> > that they drop all p's. They also *kWe- > *kWo-. Now everyone in
> > the conquered territory speaks q-Celtic.
> > IV That new people takes the rest of the p-people's land and etc
> > etc.
> > V Status: The Low people in the newly conquered land say p for kW,
> > but the High people are getting so used to it they say p too. Now
> > everyone in the new conquered territory speaks p-Celtic.
>
> OK, but this means abandoning the idea of *pémpe as a late IE (but
> Pre-Italic and Pre-Celtic) thing. We're back to independent
> branch-specific scenarios, whatever they are.

Not. Proto-Celtic happens in III. Draw a line before that and call it
NWEuropean IE.
BTW here is the NWBlock version of IE *penkWe:
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
The true-(West)Germanic fist/Faust has u too.

> Incidentally, I have checked <cóic> in Thurneyssen's OIr. grammar
> and in _IE Numerals_ (David Green in the latter just refers the
> reader to Thurneyssen's exhaustive discussion of the problem). In a
> nutshell: the word is problematic in that it reflects a long *o:
> that normally can't go back to PCelt. *on before *k(W) (an
> additional complication is the discrepancy between <cóic> and its
> compositional allomorph with a true diphthong rather than a long
> vowel, but that part is not directly relevant, so I'll skip it).
> While no solution seems to satisfy everyone, Thurneyssen's optimal
> guess is that PCelt. *kWénkWe first developed (regularly) into
> *kWe:gW- and only then did the long *e: undergo rounding in the
> labiovelar environment, eventually yielding <cóic> rather than
> *céic.

What's an optimal guess?

>So again we have a unique sequence of changes not parallelled by the
>rounding in Osco-Umbrian.

Odd. I'd've thought the NWBlock forms in *po:- said something else.


Torsten