--- In cybalist@... s.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@... >
wrote:
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@ > wrote:
>
> > Du., Ger., Da. kakerlak (spelled variously), supposedly a loan
> > from Spanish.
>
> I found an interesting etymolgy for kakerlak etc. (cf. French
> cancrelat) mentioned in Henry Yule's _Hobson-Jobson_ under the
> assumption that these terms for cockroach are derived from the
> Portuguese word "caca-lacca" , whose tentative etymology is
> provided in Jacobus Bontius' _De medicina Indorum_ (1631):
>
> http://tinyurl. com/35m22z
>
> "Scarabaeos autem hos Lusitani caca-laccas vocant, quod ova quae
> excludunt, colorem et laevorem laccae factitiae... referant"
> (tentative translation: "But the Portuguese call these beetles,
> caca-laccas because the eggs they hatch resemble the colour and
> polishness of sealing-wax" ).
>
> Portuguese caca = excrement; lacca (actually this is the medieval
> Latin form -- in Portuguese it should be laca) = lac.
Or caca- is the corresponding verb and caca-lacca is a compund of
the Verb-Object type, cf French porte-manteau, garde-robe. Would
that make sense in Portuguese, João?
>
> Thus, caca-lacca = 'lac-like excrement'?
>
or "sh*tter of lacquer"?
> Photo of cockroach egg-cases:
>
> http://tinyurl. com/2mzd8l
>
> If this etymology proves true, kakerlak etc. aren't cognate to
> Spanish cucaracha / English cockroach etc.
>
English cockroach is a folk-etymology. Caca-lacca might be too.
A hypothetical *kakk+er-lak would contain the agent suffix -er, cf.
looker-on (but not very usual in Dutch I think)
Note in your reference
http://tinyurl. com/35m22z
this quote
"
1577. -- "We were likewise annoyed not a little by the biting of an
Indian fly called Cacaroch, a name agreeable to its bad condition;
for living it vext our flesh; and being kill'd smelt as loathsomely
as the French punaise, whose smell is odious."-<-> Herbert's
Travels, 3rd ed., 332-33.
"
which seems to be halfway between caca-lak and cucaracha. Also the
nasal of Fr. cancrelat is difficult to fit into either, but they all
fit nicely with the other nasty *kr-critters
One site I found claims 'Southeast Asian' origin for cockroaches.
Trying to trace the name backwards around Africa, perhaps this is
relevant:
http://www.hku. hk/linguist/ program/worlddis c.html
"
On Cantonese (Oct 18, 2005)
Q: After today's lecture, I have a couple of questions in my mind.
First, I can't follow why gat-zat "cockroach" is a trace of
prefixes. You mean gat- is attached to the stem zat, which can stand
alone to mean something?
A: 'trace' means that it's a relic of what used to be a prefix. The
hypothesis is that it used to mean something, but if it was a prefix
it would not have stood alone. The evidence is that a prefix /ka-/
is found in insect terms in other dialects, e.g. ka-lauh 'flea' in
Xiamen (L.Sagart, Vestiges of Archaic Chinese Derivational Affixes
in Modern Chinese Dialects. In Sinitic grammar: synchronic and
diachronic perspectives, edited by Hilary Chappell. Oxford
University Press, 2001).
"
and
http://www.vny2k. com/vny2k/ SiniticVietnames e5.htm
"
Additionally we can also expand the list to contain other basic
words, of which both Vietnamese and Chinese are cognates. Below we
will examine basic words of this nature and explore the
possibilities of their being cognates with those of Chinese.
Again, this research paper definitely is not about the genetic
affinity of the Vietnamese language. Yet, its implication of those
vocabularies ranging from common basic words as cited above and many
other fundamental words as follows suggests an affiliation with
Chinese, a member of the Sino-Tibetan linguistic family, though.
...
9. Insects, pests, and parasites:
...
gián .. .. zhangláng 'cockroach' (SV tru.o.nglang)
[ VS @ 'gián' < .. ..zhangláng ],
"
http://www.vny2k. com/vny2k/ SiniticVietnames e2.htm
[on terminology]
"
In this paper I will introduce some new findings in the study field
of the Chinese (C) origin of a vast little-known stock of the
Vietnamese (V) vocabulary, which is to be called the HánNôm, or
Sinitic-Vietnamese (VS). These newly discovered words of Chinese
origin are direct results of applying the two new etymological
methods called dissyllabic and analogical approaches. The first one
is to treat sound changes of two-syllable Chinese words to
Vietnamese as being unrestricted to and independent of individual
one-syllable words to identify multiple patterns of sound changes
that have occurred to the same syllable in polysyllabic Chinese
lexicons in the process of their natural adaption in Vietnamese.
This method, in turn, will help analogize sibling glosses within a
categorical group and in a cultural context, i.e., if a word has a
Chinese origin, chances are that its related words could be the
same, too, which would go unnoticed otherwise. This subsequent
methodology is called the analogical approach.
By applying these two new etymological approaches, more Vietnamese
words of Chinese origin, including those of basic vacabulary
stratrum, can be unveiled. Implications of any new development in
this study can be used to rebut the arguments that the origin of
Vietnamese is of the Mon-Khmer branch of the Austroasiatic
linguistic family. In addition, evidences on Chinese linguistic
traits found in this study, therefore, may eventually help
strengthen the foundation for re-classifying Vietnamese into the
Sino-Tibetan (ST) linguistic family.
In the meanwhile, even though the HánViêt, or Sino-Vietnamese (SV),
sound system, obviously a variation of Middle Chinese (MC), is not
the subject matter under discussion in this study, its sound change
patterns and rules are also utilized here.
"
which, I think, means that these words are loans in Vietnamese.
Torsten