Re: [tied] Hekto:r means...?

On 2007-04-03 06:25, stevelong333 wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
> wrote:
> <<I've always taken it more or less for granted that the etymology
> is *ség^H-to:r 'victor'.
>
> Hi, Piotr --
> hekto^r has an explanation in Greek. It has been traditionally
> and quite logically derived from <echo^> and I think was even
> understood classically to mean upholder, prop, one who holds
> fast, etc. (ie, Hektor, the upholder, the mainstay of Troy). The
> Greek word <hekto^r> is even attested to have referred to
> anchors.
>
> <echo^> itself has dozens of related meanings, almost all
> connected to holding, holding on, holding fast, staying the
> course, supporting or holding position or possesion, etc. But
> you have to search through a lot of Liddell-Scott definitions
> before you find anything anywhere close to "victor" --

I had in mind the supposed original meaning of PIE *seg^H- meant
'conquer, overpower, forcibly possess', still traceable in Greek, e.g.
in the aorist senses. The semantic details of the etymology are
conjectural anyway and the one thing I would really insist on is the
connection with the root of <ekHo:>. Here we agree.

> But I take it you are going to Gothic and Sanskrit to have *ség^H-
> mean victory or something like that? But how did that work in
> Greek? There are lots of "holders" (-to^r) that could be
> connected with <echo^> who weren't military in any way,
> including pregnant women, someone steering a boat, someone
> who stays in one position or someone owning land, someone
> upholding something, etc.

Some of these can be ruled out. 'The pillar/bulwark of Troy' does make
some kind of sense (whether or not as a folk etymology), 'a pregnant
one' just doesn't. I thought a military meaning like 'victor, conqueror'
would have suited a famous warrior, just like those numerous Germanic
and Celtic personal names with the same element. A traditional
aristocratic name may well have preserved a meaning long lost in
Classical Greek.

> Can it be that Greek took a word for
> victory and turned it into all those rather unrelated things? Or is it
> more likely that the Gothic and Sanskrit meanings are very
> specific and only vaguely connected to the wider and more
> original meaning that shows up in Greek?

Given the full agreement of Indo-Iranian and Germanic plus the partial
agreement of Celtic and Latin (<seve:rus>, as argued by Nussbaum), it's
more likely that the meanings of the Greek verb are extensions of a more
specific sense ('overpower' --> 'hold, keep, have, occupy' etc.).
There's an article by Meier-Brügger that analyses the semantics of
Mycenaean <e-ke->/<e-ko->. Mycenaean names with <e-ko-> as the first
element (such as <e-ko-da-mo>) have later counterparts with <niko->
(Nikode:mos). This strengthens the case for "Hector the Conqueror".

> I hope you'll indulge this little bit of skepticism about
> reconstructed semantics.
>
> (There's another meaning given for <echo^> that I think has the
> same morphology and maybe could be a less militant and more
> reverent meaning for Hekto^r -- to carry, to bring,... used in
> "brought as an offering." There is also <hexis> -- in one sense
> meaning "skilled." And there were Romans named Sextus and
> Sextor, meaning I believe that they were the sixth son.)
>
> Perhaps Hektor was not a Greek word. But the place to start is
> Greek, isn't it? If coincidentally a foreign name sounded like a
> Greek name, I'd assume that the poet and his audience would
> have assumed it was Greek and would have re-analyzed its
> sounds to make it make sense in Greek.

That's for sure, but why Classical Greek? If the name was given its
Greek form back in the Bronze Age (cf. Myc. <e-ko-to> = Hékto:r) and was
then handed down to Homer by generations of poets, Liddell-Scott can
hardly be the complete guide to its original meaning.

> Sorry to carry on like this, but hopefully you'll find it at least a little
> useful.

I do. Thanks.

Piotr