Re: Etymology of Rome

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>
wrote:

>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> <akonushevci@> wrote:
>
> > The etymology of Rome........ from ruma (a dug), in allusion to
> > the fable of a wolf suckling the outcast children, is not

tenable.

>
> Yet the Italian scholar Massimo Pittau, an expert in Sardinian and
> Etruscan, has come up with an etymology of the toponym Roma based

on

> this very semantics -- see his paper "Etimologia del toponimo Roma"
> (first link: text; second link: notes) at
>
> http://web.tiscali.it/pittau/Etrusco/Studi/roma_testo.html
> http://web.tiscali.it/pittau/Etrusco/Studi/roma_note.html ,
>
> mirrored (text plus notes) at
>
> http://www.signainferre.it/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=69
>
> Pittau, however, does not accept the 'suckling-she-wolf' story nor
> B. Migliorini's old explanation according to which the archaic

Latin

> word <ruma> 'dug' would have designated the allegedly breast-shaped
> Palatine Hill, on which the the "Square Rome" was founded; on the
> contrary, he infers that the term <ruma> designated the 'dug-like'
> bend of the River Tiber near the Palatine Hill, where it was easy

to

> ford the river.
>
> As for Rumon as the ancient name of the Tiber (cf. Servius, ad

Verg.

> Aen. VIII, 63 and 90), Pittau doubts that this name ever designated
> the entire course of the river (which was called Albula in the most
> archaic period, and subsequently Tiberis after its Etruscan name);
> he proposes that the name Rumon indicated only a site on that

river,

> namely, the greater bend just north of his hypotesized 'ruma' bend
> of the 'sinuous' (!) Tiber. The Etruscan suffix /-on/ has an
> accretive value, thus, <rumon> = <ruma> + <-on> = 'big dug', i.e.,

a

> larger river-bend. (See the map included in Pittau's article.)
>
> As to phonetics: why the Latin name of the city was Roma and not
> *Ruma? Pittau replies with arguing that <ruma> 'dug' was an

Etruscan

> term borrowed into Latin -- a hypothesis accepted by several
> scholars. He thinks that Etruscan /u/ was alternatively perceived

by

> the Romans either as /u/ or as long /o/.
>
> Ancient Romans also tended to connect <ruma> 'dug' with
> <rumen> 'rumen' (although, according to A. Ernout and A. Meillet,
> the former term has a short root-vowel while the latter has a long
> one). Pittau, overcoming all phonological objections, proposes
> <ruma/rumen> = 'dug, breast, bag, rumen'.
>
> Of course, these are just 'interesting conjectures'... aren't they?
>
> Best,
> Francesco Brighenti
>

1. To be honest, Francesco, finally I would prefer Abdullah's PIE
*sreu- via X-Y-Z languages in place of this etruscan *ruma 'mamella'
as etymology for Rome...


2.

> Rumon as the ancient name of the Tiber (cf. Servius, ad Verg.
> Aen. VIII, 63 and 90), Pittau doubts that this name ever designated
> the entire course of the river (which was called Albula in the most
> archaic period, and subsequently Tiberis after its Etruscan name)

Regarding the Rumon attestation (I was waiting for Abdullah to
finally find it...because he usually copy/paste the first Google
reference...so you 'have dropped' my two steps scenario (of course
you can trust me or not)):

This attestation is considered only a metaphoric denomination, than
the real name of the River knowing than the archaic name was Albula
and next Tiberis...


3. > and subsequently Tiberis after its Etruscan name)

I doubt that Tiberis is an Etruscan name :

a) We have as cognate in Dacia: Tibisia/Tibiscum/Tibissus > Today
Romanian Timish (<*Timbisya < *Timisya ) (see Timishoara) ( remember
also other Dacian river names in -sya :*Ardzyesya, *Auresya,
*Ma:risya, *Krisya, *Sa:mwesya, *Patitsya etc...)

b) Note that PIE -bH- > Latin -b- so Lat. Tiberis, Dac. *Tibisia <
*tibH- are both regulars

PIE -bH- > Latin -b-: Latin nebula < PIE *nebH-eleh2

So the PIE *tibH- is possible both for Dacian river name as for
the Latin name

c) The Most Archaic name of the river is a Latin(<IE) one too:
Albula < 'white'



4. "Regarding Etruscan u > Latin o"

Some of Pittau quoted examples has a clear IE Etymology: that
confirm more the inverse supposition: Latin o > Etruscan u

In other words: Pittau seems not to have 'deep knowledges' on IE
roots and IE phonology...and if I can see this as 'an amateur'...you
can see also what could be the value of his 'mamella' etymology

Marius