Re: [tied] Re: PIE i- and u-stems again

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:28:52 -0000, "tgpedersen"
<tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <miguelc@...>
>wrote:
>>
>> An analysis of the attested forms in Sanskrit, Greek,
>> Armenian of these u-stem neuters reveals that they are in
>> origin neuter n-stems (i.e. r/n-heteroclitics) composed with
>> a suffix *-un- (final *-un > *-ur, unstressed *-un- = *-un-,
>> stressed *-ún- > *-éu-). For instance:
>
>Stressed *-ún- > *-óu- is more phonetically believeable and matches
>your date too.

/o/ was a long vowel at the time ([o:]), and wouldn't have
been reduced.

>> NA *g^á:n-un > *g^ónur
>> G *g^a:n-ún-a:s > *g^en&wós > *g^énwos
>> or, with early stress-shift:
>> G > *g^enw&nós > *g^énunos
>> L *g^a:n-ún-a > *g^enéw-i > *g^énui
>> I *g^a:n-un-éh1 > *g^enunéh1 > *g^énuneh1
>> du.
>> NA *g^á:n-un-ih1 > *g^ónunih1 (cf. Skt. januni:, Toch.B
>> keni:ne)
>
>Is this *-ur/*-un heteroclitic matched with similar *-ir/*-in and
>*-ar/*-an heteroclitics?

Sure. The *-[C]ar/*-[C]an heteroclitics are the normal
-r/-n heteroclitics [after zero grade]. The *-[C]ir/*-[C]in
heteroclitics are the i/n-stems of Sanskrit (áks.i, aks.nás
"eye", ásthi, asthnás "bone", dádhi, dadhnás "curds",
sákthi, sakthná: "thigh"). *potis (Toch. petso reflects the
old nominative *pótyo:n) is probably a non-neuter member of
this same group.

>If so, is the *-r/*-n part detachable from the stem in *-u, *-i and *-a?

No. *-un- is a suffix. Suffixes are (C)VC(C).

>How would you account for Latin pecus, pecoris and pecus, pecudis? If
>your *-ur/*-un stem is like the usual heteroclitics, its consonant
>would alternate with more than r/n

The r/n alternation is simply the result of a soundlaw:
n > r / _# (but n > n / m(V)_# ).

There is an ancient alternation n ~ t (e.g. in the plural
morpheme **-an ~ **-atV), which is not limited to PIE. This
may be relevant to the connection between n/r-stems and
s-stems, but I don't know how.

I can't do anything with pecus, pecudis

>> >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer
>> ><mcv@> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Olsen has shown that *-is and *-us
>> >> in final position (when there was no early loss of
>> >> the vowel) give -r (presumably -(i/u)s^ > -z^ > -r).
>>
>> Of course. This applies only in monosyllables:
>> *tris > erir "twice",
>> *dWis > erkir "thrice",
>
>Is this right?

Yes.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
miguelc@...