From: mkelkar2003
Message: 47355
Date: 2007-02-08
>Thank you for your detailed responses Mr. Knysh. This has indeed been
>
> > Put aside the "nomadic" mantra if you can. I've
> > already mentioned my critiques of Levine ,
> > Rassamakin
> > et sim. of a few years ago on this list (2001,
> > 2002).
> > There's no point in repeating myself. Find the texts
> > and read them. See also below at **** here and
> > there.
> > One only has so much patience. And BTW my name is
> > Knysh not Kynsh.
> > --- mkelkar2003 <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
> >
> > > "How valid is the hypothesis concerning the
> > > formation of nomadism
> >
> > ****GK: Forget this red herring.****
> >
> > and
> > > horseback riding in the steppes of the fourth
> > > millennium BC?
> > > Undoubtedly, Eneolithic herdsmen had to control
> > the
> > > herd and thus they
> > > might ride a horse (a belt or rope halter is quite
> > > sufficient for
> > > that).
> >
> > ****GK: And of course they just couldn't figure out
> > any better way to control the animal,or find other
> uses for it besides steaks or snowploughs. Levine says
> > so.
> > (:=))****
> >
> > But the rider who shoots or fights with a
> > > spear
> >
> > ****GK: Stone battle axes and mallets.****
> >
> > needs a
> > > confident seat that requires, in turn, bridles and
> > > cheek-pieces. Bone
> > > artifacts with one or two holes found at Dereivka
> > > were interpreted by
> > > Telegin as the earliest known cheek-pieces. This
> > > became the basis for
> > > the hypothesis of the early spread of riding in
> > the
> > > steppes of Eurasia
> > > which was accepted by many scientists.
> >
> > ****GK: And still is, except for a few misguided
> > scholars, esp. of those of the Renfrew group.****
> >
> > > In reality this hypothesis is based on a
> > > misunderstanding. In 1970
> > > Kozhin published an article in which he proposed
> > > that horn objects
> > > with holes, found at Siberian Afansevo culture
> > > sites, which resemble
> > > Scynthian cheek-pieces to some extent, also served
> > > for horseback
> > > riding. This proposition was rejected by Gryaznov
> > > (see 1997, 57,
> > > figs. 32, 34, & 35), and Kozhin changed his mind.
> >
> > ****GK: Telegin didn't change his mind about
> > Dereivka.
> > There was no reason to.****
> >
> > > Danilenko & Shmagly
> > > (1972) and Telegin (1973), however, have
> > interpreted
> > > similar objects
> > > from Dereivka as cheek-pieces and declared the
> > > steppe horse-breeders
> > > to be nomadic riders
> >
> > ****GK: "pastoralists" are not necessarily "nomads",
> > and Telegin doesn't designate them as such in his
> > seminal work on Dereivka.****
> >
> > who undertook distant military
> > > raids.
> >
> > ****GK: I don't remember encountering the term
> > "distant" in Telegin. Just the notion that mounted
> > horsemen wielding battle axes could be "formidable
> > warriors".****
> >
> > Gimbutas
> > > (1977),
> >
> > ****GK: Gimbutas and her theories are an entirely
> > different thing. I don't accept much of her
> > notions.****
> >
> > who studied in Heidelberg (Germany) under
> > > outstanding
> > > pan-Germanic ideologists (as Hausler (1996) has
> > > discovered) gave this
> > > issue a political character: in her interpretation
> > > savage
> > > warrior-raiders, invading from the east,
> > barbarously
> > > destroyed the
> > > farming culture of Europe and brought
> > Indo-European
> > > languages there.
> > > This hypothesis has already been opposed (Kuzmina
> > > 1981; 1983; 1994a,b;
> > > 1996-97, 1999). Now the interpretation of
> > > `cheek-pieces' and
> > > domestication are under serious criticism (Levine
> > > 1990; 1999;
> > > Rassamakin 1994; 1999; Trifonov & Izbitser 1997).
> >
> > ****GK: The criticism is weak and easily
> > dismissable.***
> >
> > > Judging from the
> > > ethnographic and archaeological data, analyzed
> > > artifacts have a wide
> > > range of formal analogies, from braiding tools
> > > (Chernysh 1969) and
> > > horn mattocks of the Tripolye culture (Rassamakin
> > > 1999) to pastoral
> > > staves (Gryaznov 1999) and implements for undoing
> > > knots in China.
> > > Dietz (1992) has undertaken a study of similar
> > > objects in Europe which
> > > are widespread within different cultures. She
> > > determined that that
> > > they were multi-functional and appear in cultures
> > of
> > > different
> > > economic types-including those without horses.
> >
> > ****GK: So multi-functionalism is an argument
> > against
> > such items in Dereivka being cheek-pieces? I don't
> > think so.****
> >
> >
> >
> > Such
> > > objects are
> > > especially numerous on pile settlements in
> > > Switzerland where they
> > > served for net-braiding. Thus, there are no
> > serious
> > > arguments to
> > > support horseback riding in the steppes.
> >
> > ****GK: What a neat little non-sequitur.*****
> >
> > As for
> > > horse teeth evidence
> > > for the use of cheek-pieces (Anthony and Brown
> > > 1991), that horse, as
> > > already stated, does not belong to the Eneolithic
> > > (Anthony 1999).
> >
> > ****GK: As stated, the Dereivka horse head was
> > contaminated prior to analysis. The oldest obtained
> > radiocarbondate (IVth mill.) stands.****
> >
> > > (Omitted paragraph).
> > > Horse bones on Eneolithic sites on the Pontic
> > > Caspian steppes are
> > > split which means that the horse was used as a
> > meat
> > > animal. There is
> > > evidence of neither nomadic herding
> >
> > ****GK: So who cares? You don't have to be a nomad
> > to
> > ride horses and use them for military purposes.****
> >
> > nor distant
> > > migration, and we can
> > > agree with Renfrew (1999, 10) when he says: `the
> > > notion of "kurgan
> > > culture" mounted warriors around 3500 or 3000 BC
> > as
> > > responsible for
> > > carrying Indo-European speech from the steppe
> > lands
> > > westward into
> > > Central Europe should be definitively abandoned
> > > (Kuzmina 2003, pp.
> > > 213-214)."
> >
> > ****GK: The rejection of Gimbutas does not affect
> > the
> > expansion of Battle/Axe/Corded Ware. Some of this
> > was
> > violent, some peaceful: such as the intermarriage
> > arrangements between Trypilians and early Corded
> > Ware
> > pastoralists. The "kurgan" burial rite was not
> chracteristic of pre-Yamna Corded Ware.***
> >
> > > Kuzmina, Elena E. (2003), "Origins of Pastoralism
> > in
> > > the Eurasian
> > > Steppes," in Prehistoric Steppe Adaptation and the
> > > Horse, Marsha
> > > Levine, Colin Renfrew, and Kati Boyle (Eds.), pp.
> > > 203-232, Cambridge,
> > > UK: McDonald Institute for Archaeological
> > Research.
> > > "These data are believed to confirm the hypothesis
> > > that Yamnaya groups
> > > migrated only within small local grassland areas.
> >
> > ****GK: Yamna is a late (ca.3500-2800 BCE)version of
> Corded Ware in
> > the
> > East. The expansion began in the preceding
> > phases.****
> >
> > > The absence of
> > > large permanent settlements
>
> ****GK:Mykhajlivka is pretty large****
>
> seems to indicate that
> > > such migrations,
> > > even within such regions, were undertaken on a
> > > regular basis. No
> > > direct evidence is available of large-scale
> > > migrations of Yamnaya
> > > groups (Shishlina 2003, p. 360)."
> >
> > ****GK: So what? Yamna itself was the result of
> > prior
> > expansion and mutual integration of various groups.
> > And it coexisted with many other CW cultures. This
> > whole is considerably larger than the original
> > Serednyj Stih area.****
> >
> > > "Therefore, I (Shishlina) suggest that, during the
> > > Yamnaya culture
> > > period, horses played only a minimal role in the
> > > pastoral exploitation
> > > of the Eurasian steppe. Herders could use them as
> > > draught animals and
> > > for riding.
> >
> > ****GK:But not for fighting? Why not?****
> >
> > Long-distance migrations were
> > > unnecessary.
>
> ****GK: A lot of "unnecessary" expansionism seems to
> have occurred between ca.4200 (and even earlier) and
> 2800 BCE. If only the Corded Ware peoples had known
> this wasn't "necessary"!(:=))****
>
> Pastoral
> > > routes were small. In this economic cycle, the
> > > horse played a key > role among other domesticated
> > animals, because it
> > > could be used to
> > > break snow cover (Shishlina 2003, p. 362)."
> > > "Thus, I (Shishlina) am in agreement with Levine:
> > > at present we do
> > > not have any archaeological evidence to prove the
> > > existence of warrior
> > > horse-raiders from the fourth and the first
> > > millennium BC (Levine
> > > 1999).
>
> ****GK: Apart from the nonsensical assumption that it
> took 3,000 years after the first rider jumped on
> horseback to figure out how to properly control the
> animal for purposes of combat,there is the implicit
> and equally nonsensical supposition that horses could
> be used for chariot combat but not for military
> horseback riding except by "nomads".(:=))))))))*****
>
> Furthermore, I am in agreement with
> > > Rassamkin that `we cannot
> > > interpret the Early Eneolithic as a period of
> > > nomadic horse-riding, or
> > > even of developed pastoralism (Rassamakin 1999,
> > > 139), (Shishlina 2003,
> > > p. 363)."
> > > Shishlina, Natalia I. (2003), "Yamnaya Culture
> > > Pastoral Explotation:
> > > a Local Sequence," in Prehistoric Steppe
> > Adaptation
> > > and the Horse,
> > > Marsha Levine, Colin Renfrew, and Kati Boyle
> > (Eds.),
> > > pp. 353-365,
> > > Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for
> > > Archaeological Research. "
> >
> >
> > ****GK: There is plenty of evidence to suggest
> > territorial expansion from the Serednyj Stih
> > heartland. Assisted by warrior horsemen. Sometimes
> > peaceful,sometimes not. Those who claim that horses
> > could not be used for military purposes prior to
> > chariot times(which began ca.3000 BCE)should prove
> > this.They haven't so far.****
> > >____________________________________________________________________________________
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
>
>
>
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