[tied] Re: From words to dates: Water into wine, mathemagic or phyl

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
> The Kurgan theory centres
> > on
> > > possible
> > > > archaeological evidence for an expansion into
> > > Europe and the
> > > > Near East by Kurgan horsemen beginning in the
> > > sixth millennium
> > > > BP7,8.
> >
> > GK: So these people are testing "the Kurgan
> > theory" from a time frame when there were no Kurgans
> > (where one needed them), no horsemen, not even
> > chariots... Verrry interrresting, to cite from a
> > '60's
> > U.S. comedy program.
>
> ****GK: Sorry! My mistake. Confused the "BPE" with
> "BCE"... But Torsten's point about chariots is
> adequate. The earliest depiction is dated ca. 3900 BCE
> in the Trypilian c., then being "invaded" (but
> relatively peacefully) by Serednyj Stih pastoralists
> from the East.****

Here is our previous exchange on this issue. There is no evidence of
pastoral nomadism on the steppes in the time perios you are looking
for. I have posted expert opinion on this before. I would be happy
to do it again.

You might as well forget of horse riding pastoral nomads. The other
line of thinking Tortsen is taking has a better chance of succeding.
Agriculture could be responsible for the expansion from the steppes
not horseback nomadism

M. Kelkar


"*****GK: Serednyj Stih (ca. 4200-3500 BC) was

> antecedent to Yamna, and was ancestral to the latter
> as well as to other "Corded Ware" cultures. It was a
> pastoral (though not exclusively so) culture, not a
> classical "nomadic" culture. The spread of "Corded
> Ware" to northern and central Europe preceded the
> emergence of Yamna. "Corded Ware" had infiltrated
> Trypilia (from its Serednyj Stih base) and was already
> present as far west as the current Polish-Ukrainian
> border even before the disappearance of Funnel Beaker.
> Globular Amphorae bypassed this initial CW presence as
> it marched eastward against the Trypilians. Within a
> few hundred years everything in this large area became
> "Corded Ware". Yamna (ca. 3500-2800 BC) was a late
> eastern variant of "Corded Ware".******

The following link don't mention anything about language of these
people.

http://www.netaxs.com/~tdo/trypil.html

Many articles on this site are very cautious about the language issue:

http://www.trypillia.com/articles/index.shtml

except this one which apprently has not been updated for a while.

http://www.trypillia.com/articles/eng/re5.shtml

The author defends Gimbutas' theory as follows:

"The language of the Kurgan horse-riders did expand. All scholars
(except the so-called Indocentric crackpots) admit that Indo-Iranian
was a Kurgan language, and that the languages of northern India have
been replaced by Indo-Aryan, even though there is no evidence of a
major invasion."

Allen might as well include the whole archaeological establishment for
example Harvard archaeologist Lamberg-Karlovsky in his defintion of
"Indo-Centric" crackpots.

Looking at the diagram titled "Central Europe at the beginning of the
3rd Millenium BC" not just "Indo-Iranian" but **EVERY
SINGLE**identification of a site with a group of languages has been
rejected by specialist in the field. All the references have been
listed under Section 6 of proto vedic continuity theory.doc in the
files section.

In passing it may be noted that James Allen is a computer programmer.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jamesdow/Tech/index.htm

Allen's articles in not listed under "Scientifc Articles."

"It is known though that the tribes that later formed the Trypillia
culture must have migrated from the territories of what today are
Rumania and Hungary, and settled in the territory of the present-day
Ukraine in about the sixth millennium BC. We have no clear evidence as
to what language they spoke (Dovzhenko, 2005 ?)"

http://www.trypillia.com/articles/eng/re3.shtml

Hungary to Ukriane is in the other direction.

M. Kelkar"

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