Re: Re[2]: [tied] Fw: Subjunctive

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian M. Scott

To: Patrick Ryan

Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:16 PM

Subject: Re[2]: [tied] Fw: Subjunctive

At 11:26:59 AM on Sunday, December 31, 2006, Patrick Ryan
wrote:

[...]

> What I cannot believe you do not grasp is that perfective
> has to do with the goal of an activity not its duration;
> as long as the speaker has a logical goal in mind, the
> action can be punctual or durative:

*perfective* /p&'fektIv/ n. or adj. A superordinate
aspectual category involving a lack of explicit reference
to the internal temporal consistency of a situation, and
contrasting principally with *imperfective* .

*imperfective* /Imp&'fektIv/ n. or adj. A superordinate
aspectual category making reference to the internal
structure of the activity expressed by the verb, and
contrasting with the *perfective* . The imperfective may
be subdivided into various more specialized aspectual
distinctions, such as *habitual*, *progressive* and
*iterative*.

(From Larry Trask's _A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in
Linguistics_ .) Nothing about goals here.

***

I have and had great respect for Larry Trask but this dictionary was not his finest work.

"internal temporal consistency of a situation": meaningless gobbledegook!

I prefer to look to a Slavicist for the meaning of imperfective/perfective, since they are integral to these languages.

Forbes (The Russian Verb): "A verb of the perfective aspect, or a perfective verb, is one which describes an action which has been or will be _definitely completed_."

As Sergei pointed out, proc^itayu means 'I shall read through' to a native Russian speaker: I.e. perfective.

***

> 'I am consuming the bread'; 'I consume the bread'; 'I
> shall consume the bread'

> are all perfective.

The first is not: it is progressive, and hence imperfective.
The second can be habitual (and so imperfective) . Only the
last is clearly perfective.

***

Wrong. 'consume' means 'eat up', a perfective of the hermaphroditic 'eat'.

'When I consume the bread, we go to the store for more.'   Clearly punctual and perfective.

***

> English frequently employs prepositions, just like the
> Slavic languages, to indicate aspect: 'eat up' is
> perfective, whether durative or punctual.

'The durative aspect is a subdivision of imperfective
aspect' (Trask s.v. <durative>).

[...]

***

Trask is wrong. And the vast majority of Slavicists would agree.

Is this not right, Sergei? For Slavic, yes. For other languages, no.

 

***

>>> Unquestionably, the reduplicated perfect supplanted the
>>> unreduplicated perfect but this happened to most verbs
>>> so any that escaped the process in any given branch is
>>> fortuitous and unpredictable.

>> Why "unquestionably" ?

> Because 1 comes before 2; simple before complex. It is the
> universe we live in. Sorry about that.

Language frequently develops in the other direction.

mobile vulgus > mobile > mob
bi: cause > because
amare habemus > aimerons
para + veredus > paraveredus > Pferd

And perhaps more directly apposite:

*bebu: > *beu: > bjó (3sing. past of ON <búa>)

[...]

Brian

***

I would not be so foolish as to suggest that language develops by _only_ by addition; obviously, simplification also happens.

 

Patrick

***