Re: [tied] Fw: Subjunctive

----- Original Message -----

From: Piotr Gasiorowski

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 6:11 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] Fw: Subjunctive

On 2006-12-30 23:22, Patrick Ryan wrote:

> Are you asserting that the aorist is the PIE expression of the
> perfective aspect?
>
> And that the present expresses the imperfective aspect?
>
> If so, I find that completely unjustified!

Unjustified on what grounds? What I'm asserting isn't a mere private
opinion but the received interpretation of the category "aorist" in PIE,
so you'd better support your extraordinary claim with extraordinarily
good arguments ;-)

***

First, let me ask you a question.

If I say:

'He is eating up the bread.'

Is that perfective?

***

 

> Why correct me? There are unreduplicated perfects which, it may be
> assumed, preceded reduplicated perfects.

Is it something that may be "assumed"? The _only_ perfect that was
certainly unreduplicated in the common ancestor of (non-Anatolian) IE is
*woid-/*wid- .

***

An unsatisfying argument.

Unquestionably, the reduplicated perfect supplanted the unreduplicated perfect but this happened to most verbs so any that escaped the process in any given branch is fortuitous and unpredictable.

***

> Some very fine linguists have had different ideas regarding the
> meaning of the subjunctive.
>
> What leads you to believe they were wrong?

Surely not the _PIE_ subjunctive. I don't know of any historical
linguists, especially "fine" ones, whose views about the meaning of the
PIE moods should be significantly different from what I wrote. Perhaps
you are thinking of verb moods labeled "subjunctive" in other
languages, but we've been talking about PIE, haven't we?

Piotr

***

I consider W. P. Lehmann a fine linguist. This was his view (_Proto-Indo-European Synatx_).

And, I believe you know, we have been talking about PIE.

Obligative and necessitative are not indicative statements of fact. They are both, in a sense, irrealis. That is, of course, why the subjunctive could later migrate to non-second person imperatives and optatives.

 

Patrick

***