From: Joao S. Lopes
Message: 46381
Date: 2006-10-16
1 kabhu- kapu- [hawk] CGer habukaz Pol kobuz=Rus kobets Grk kapys Alb shkabë [eagle]
2 h1er-n^ [eagle, large bird] Grk ornis [bird] CGer aron,arnuz Lit eras,erelis,erglis VSl orIlU Hit harash VIrl ilar<irar =Gal eryr
3 s-mer- Grk mermnôn[kite] Av m&r&Gô [big bird] San mrgah (bird of prey, wild animal) Lat milvus[ kite <*merliwos?] OHG smerlo [merlin]
4 k^yin- Grk iktinos [kite] Arm çin [kite] Sansk s^yena[eagle]=Avst saena from *k^ei- "dark", like Lat aquila [< aquilus,dark],milvus[< mel- dark]
5 wiy- [falcon] OHG wi:(h)o,wi:go Grk hierax
6 s-torg-o- [larg bird, stork, vulture] CGer storkaz [stork] Grk torgos [vulture]
--- In cybalist@... s.com, Jens Elmegård Rasmussen <elme@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, "Anthony Appleyard" <a.appleyard@ >
> wrote:
>
> > It is to be wondered why Finno-Ugrian needed a new word for
> > "hawk". Birds of prey (goshawks in forest, gyrfalcons on tundra)
> > would have
> > been familiar to FInno-Ugrian speakers before the IE-speakers
> > spread.
> >
>
>
> I think it is plain that the word was there first. Both Finno-Ugric
> and Indo-European cover such a large territory that they cannot be
> original in all places. So, in places where the population later
> abandoned their native language and adopted FU or IE (by force or by
> choice, what do I know?), they just did not learn *all* words of the
> new language. Some words were so specialized that the alternatives
> would not really fit, or they just did not learn the new language
> that well, anyway, some words of the old - now substratum -
> language simply stuck and were not replaced. I think that is how
> a substratum works.
That's how it worked in America, so that seems reasonable.
The problem with it is that that substrate language would have
had a Grimm shift *k- > *h- judging from the Slavic and MLat. forms
in *k-, since there is no such rule to do the job in Baltic Fennic.
We know that the Grimm shift in Germanic was not yet completed in
Tacitus' time
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/27873
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/29016
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/46084
According to my own scenario, Scandinavia wasn't Germanic-speaking
before our era.
This idea might save that scenario though: suppose the "hawk" word
(and the "falcon" word, which looks odd too) came with the "Germanic
invasion" in the form of hawking and falconry? That would explain
the need for a new word.
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Falconry
Torsten