Re: [tied] Help with Germanic & Scythian etymology

Istvo is usually considered to be a variant (or a corrupted transcription) of Istro, from Istraz < Is-ro- "rapid, quick, coherent to Thor's qualities.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Istvaeones (also called Istaevones, Istriaones, Istriones, Sthraones, Thracones, Rhine Germans or Weser-Rhine Germans (Istwäonen, Weser-Rhein-Germanen in German)) were a West Germanic cultural group or proto-tribe. Their name comes from Tacitus Germania (c. 98 CE) who categorized them as one of the tribes of Mannus and labelled them as those tribes who were not either Ingvaeones or Irminones. They dwelt around the Atlantic coast (modern day Netherlands, Belgium and northern France) as well as the Rhine and Weser river systems from perhaps 500 BCE, until the differentiation of localized Teutonic tribes (Chatti, Hessians, Franks) in that region circa 250 CE. There is also evidence some of them merged with the North Sea Germans (Ingvaeones).

Jakob Grimm in his Teutonic Mythology urged that Iscaevones was the correct form, partly because it would connect the name to an ancestor figure in Norse mythology named Ask, partly because in Nennius where the name Mannus is corrupted as Alanus, the ancestor of the Istaevones appears as Escio or Hisicion. There the sons of this figure are, fantastically, from Frankish tradition, Francus, Romanus, Alamanus, and Bruttus, the supposed ancestors of the Franks, Latins, Germans and Britons. This seems to reflect Frankish desire to connect the Franks with the people they ruled.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nennius-full.html
(...)

The first man that dwelt in Europe was Alanus, with his three sons, Hisicion, Armenon, and Neugio. Hisicion had four sons, Francus, Romanus, Alamanus, and Bruttus. Armenon had five sons, Gothus, Valagothus, Cibidus, Burgundus, and Longobardus. Neugio had three sons, Vandalus, Saxo, and Boganus. From Hisicion arose four nations__the Franks, the Latins, the Germans, and Britons: from Armenon, the Gothi, Valagothi, Cibidi, Burgundi, and Longobardi:: from Neugio, the Bogari, Vandali, Saxones, and Tarincgi. The whole of Europe was subdivided into these tribes.

Alanus is said to have been the son of Fethuir; Fethuir, the son of Ogomuin, who was the son oof Thoi; Thoi was the son of Boibus, Boibus off Semion, Semion of Mair, Mair of Ecthactus, Ecthactus of Aurthack, Aurthack of Ethec, Ethec of Ooth, Ooth of Aber, Aber of Ra, Ra of Esraa, Esraa of Hisrau, Hisrau of Bath, Bath of Jobath, Jobath of JJoham, Joham of Japheth, Japheth of Noah, Noah of Lamech, Lamech of Mathusalem, Mathusalem of Enoch, Enoch of Jared, Jared of Malalehel, Malalehel of Cainan, Cainan of Enos, Enos of Seth, Seth of Adam, and Adam was formed by the living God. We have obtained this information respecting the original inhabitants of Britain from ancient tradition.

18. The Britons were thus called from Brutus: Brutus was the son of Hisicion, Hisicion was the son of Alanus, Alanus was the son of Rehea Silvia, Rhea Silvvia was the daughter of Numa Pompilius, Numa was the son of Ascanius, Ascanius of Eneas, Eneas of Anchises, Anchises of Troius, Troius of Dardanus, Dardanus of Flisa, Flisa of Juuin, Juuin of Japheth; but Japheth had seven sons; from the first, named Gomer, descended the Galli; from the second, Magog, the Scythi and Gothi; from the third, Madian, the Medi; from the fourth, Juuan, the Greeks; from the fifth, Tubal, arose the Hebrei, Hispani, and Itali; from the sixth, Mosoch, sprung the Cappadoces; and from the seventh, named Tiras, descended the Thraces: these are the sons of Japheth, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech.

"A." <xthanex@...> escreveu:

Joao,

I agree with your association of Ing with Yngvi-Freyr as this is well
documented. As to Irmin = Odin, yes Odin is called Jormunr in one
text, however Turville-Petre (pg 62) points out this is likely an
usurped name, further as the name irmin seems to mean "giant, great,
enormous" the term would be more fittingly applied to Thor. This is
why there is some controversy in the matter.
In order to clarify things, could you explain the etymology and
reason you link Istvo to Thor?

Sincerely,
Aydan

PS: Furthermore, I agree that when you bring in Ymir and the Norse
myths you get:

Ymir/Buri = Tuisto = Fethuir = Jove = Zeus
Bor = Mannus = Alanus = Targitaus = Hercules
Odin/Ve = Istaev/Iscio = Hisicion = Scythian son 1?
Ve/Odin = Irmin = Armenon = Scythian son 2?
Vili = Ing = Neugio = Scythian son 3?

--- In cybalist@... s.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@.. .> wrote:
>
> Tuisto < *twi- "two, twin", was the same as Norse Ymir, the
Hermaphrodit Primordial Giant (PIE theme, akin to Indian Purus.a,
Greek Eros Protogonos).
> Irmin = *Ermunaz, -inaz = Odinn
> Istvo = Istwaz, -an = Thorr
> Ingvo = Yngvi-Freyr
>
>
> Joao SL
>
> "A." <xthanex@... > escreveu:
Greetings all,
>
> I was looking back over a couple of myths regarding Germanic,
Norse, and eventually Scythian origins.... and thought perhaps
someone here could help me out a bit?
>
> In Gmc myth the proto-ancestor is Tuisto/Tuisco, who then has a
son Mannus (man) who in turn has three sons: Ing, Irmin, and
Istaev/Iscio.
>
> Tuisto is generally believed to derive from *tvi- "two" , and thus
to have a name which reflects an androgynous nature similar to that
of Ymir (with who Tuisto shares some features).
> Elsewhere some have put forth the idea that Tuisto is based on the
> word for "conflict/dispute/ division" which also springs from *tvi-
> (German zwist, Swedish tvista, Dutch twisten)
>
> Jakob Grimm suggested the name and variant forms (Thuisco,
Thuiskon, Tuisco) come from the adjective tivisco derived from the
name of the god Tiu; (from *Tîwaz), and the adjective derived from it
could mean either "celestial" or "son of Tiu".
>
> My first question is whether anyone can shed any light on the
> likelihood of one etymology versus another??
>
> -----
>
> The second matter is that of Mannus' son Istaev/Iscio - can anyone
> offer an etymology to this? (
the name Irmin seems to mean "mighty/giant" , while Yngvi is a term
used in skaldic poetry to mean "king" and is another name for Frey)
>
> -----
>
> In the "History Of The Britons" (Historia Brittonum) by Nennius,
> Mannus is referred to by the name "Alanus" - with his sons being
> Hisicion, Armenon, and Neugio (to match Istaev/Iscio, Irmin, and
Ing)
> Lastly Tuisco seems to be replaced by a character named Fethuir.
> Again, if anyone had any suggestions for ANY of the above
individuals it would mean a lot.
>
> -----
>
> A last possible correlate to the above matching tales, is that
told by Herodotus regarding the ancestry of the Scythians.
> Here a man named Targitaus (a son of Jove) begat three sons,
> Leipoxais, Arpoxais, and Colaxais.
>
> Right after that Herodotus mentions the tale told by the Pontic
> Greeks about the origin of the Scythians. In this story Hercules
(son
> of Zeus) begets three sons named Agathyrsus, Gelonus, Scythes.
> In the two Scythian tales Colaxais and Scythes are equated but I
> cannot determine the other brothers.
>
> Tuisto = Fethuir = Jove = Zeus
> Mannus = Alanus = Targitaus = Hercules
> Istaev/Iscio = Hisicion =?
> Irmin = Armenon =?
> Ing = Neugio =?
>
> I apologize for just throwing this out here, I know it is a bunch
of names, but I thought as they are all interconnected, it might be
best to put forth all the questions at once.
>
> Sincerely,
> Aydan

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Re: [tied] Help with Germanic & Scythian etymology

Istvo is usually considered to be a variant (or a corrupted transcription) of Istro, from *Istraz < *Is-ro- "rapid, quick, coherent to Thor's qualities.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Istvo is usually considered to be a variant (or a corrupted transcription) of Istro, from Istraz < Is-ro- "rapid, quick, coherent to Thor's qualities.