Re: [tied] Re: Latin barba in disaccord with Grimm's Law?

--- Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:52:39 -0700 (PDT), Sean
> Whalen
> <stlatos@...> wrote:
>
> >--- Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:23:04 -0700 (PDT), Sean
> >> Whalen
> >> <stlatos@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> >--- Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:02:42 -0700 (PDT), Sean
> >> >> Whalen
> >> >> <stlatos@...> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >--- Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:

> >> Certainly not.
> >
> > There are forms that should have o-grade which
> show
> >a; so (I'm using x for h2):
> >
> >*-oxor > *-axar (or -0, -i ending) > -ar L,
> -mai/-me:n
> >Gk
>
> I suppose you're referring to the middle endings
> *-h2ai
> (*-h2ar) and *-th2ai (*-th2ar). That's the
> exception to the
> rule, although in fact there is no o-grade there,
> just a
> vowel which is basically equivalent to the thematic
> vowel
> (except that it follows the personal morphs instead
> of
> preceding them).

Whatever the origin of *o I think h-coloring was
later.

> >*xoiteye- > aitéo: "ask for" Gk
> >*xonx^.mo- > ánemos "wind" Gk
>
> No reason to expect o-grade here, in my opinion.

Well, I don't think I have any other examples you'd
accept.

> What you should be looking for are cases of Ablaut
> variation
> *h2e ~ *h2o (a ~ o) and *eh2 ~ *oh2 (a: ~ o:). Such
> cases
> are abundant, (*h2ost()- / *h2est()- "bone" (Celtic
> *ast-),
> *h2owi- ~ *h2ewi- "sheep" (Skt. avi-), to give just
> two off
> the top of my head).

But there are other problems with the forms of
"bone" and some say there are two similar words. The
lengthening of *(o>o:>)a: hasn't had it's environment
fully explained (pati-, bhara-) and may not happen in
*o from *e after h3 at all.

I don't think there's any good cases of ablaut to
explain this (if one side can always say "from e not
o" to examples).

> > Do you think analogy or a new formation created
> >oidos not *ai-?
>
> There are several possibilities. The root may show
> heavy
> Ablaut *h2oid- (strong) ~ *h2eid- (weak), but that
> doesn't
> fit in well with *h2id- (or *h2i-n-d-). We may have
> middleweight Ablaut *h2oid- ~ *h2id-, with secondary
> analogical *h2eid-. If we have regular Ablaut, then
> *h3eid-
> ~ *h3id- is a possibility, if *h3id- can somehow
> give *&3i-
> > ai- in Armenian and Latin (can it?).

I'd say "no" so far.

> *moig^hós had o-grade because the initial laryngeal
> is
> deleted (cf. Grk. omeikh- vs. moikhós) (de Saussure,
> Rasmussen).

I think many Greek words have o- from *h3o-
"on(to)"; there's really no other way to explain the
variation.

> >> That's the standard Armenian reflex of a
> vocalized
> >> laryngeal.
> >
> > But h1 (x^) in
> >
> >* x^regWo-s > érebos, erek
>
> Olsen derives this from *regWos, with
> "unetymological" e- in
> Armenian and Greek to avoid initial r-. Cf. for
> Armenian
> erku < rku < dWu: < dwo: and similar cases.

But why would so few words in PIE begin with *r
(instead of none) and there be no cases of *h1r- (if
you disagree with *h1roudho-, etc.)?

> >* x^n^ewn. > ennéa, inn
>
> Well that's a can of worms. In general, IE
> languages
> reflect */newn./, which could be from */h1newn./,
> except
> that does not explain either the Greek form (with
> /nn/) or
> the Armenian form (with */e-/ > /i-/, not /a-/).

Since I have *n^ in PIE for other reasons, having
differing outcomes between x^n- and x^n^- solves a few
problems.

x^n^
x^n^.n^
x^en^n^
enn

> >and the Greek forms for "name" and "tooth" both
> have
> >variants with e- not o- (which seems like
> assimilation
> >to the following o).
>
> Exactly. Armenian has a- in both (anun and atamn).

But with other words where *h1 > e in Greek before e
in the next syl. but e/o before o makes vowel
assimilation likely (also needed in cases not having
to do with *h1). The same (and additional examples
of) change can account for Armenian.



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