Re: [tied] Question on Polish

1. The vowel spelt y is a central unrounded in the modern language (= barred i in IPA), so it is not equal to the English [I] (even if similar to some degree). Some sources assert it is a front vowel. It is not true in the modern speech any longer (even if it may be true a century ago).

 

2. You can hear how this vowel is pronounced from my pages on Polish grammar (http://www.aries.com.pl/grzegorzj/gram/unien/fonemy.html). The set of pages on Polish phonetics contains recorded examples of all Polish sounds. However, the records are in Windows Media Audio format (WMA), not in mp3 (or wav) due to better compression and less size. You will not have any problems with them if you use a PC + Windows.

 

3. The digraph "rz" does NOT mark any palatal or palatalized sound (the same sz, z. (z with dot above), cz, dz. (z with dot above)). See my page on phonetic values of Polish spelling. It is accessible from the link above (the tab "Spelling" on the bottom) or directly on http://www.aries.com.pl/grzegorzj/gram/unien/fonemy3.html. Explanations when a given letter or letter group has a given phonetic values are accessible when you place your mouse on the proper place.

 

4. Basically "rz" and "z." mean the same - a voiced alveolar wide fricative (for "wide" - see http://www.aries.com.pl/grzegorzj/gram/uni/sibilants.html). The difference in spelling is mainly historical. However, there is also a difference in assimilation between "rz" and "z.". See my Polish grammar for more details if interested.

 

5. None of three Polish series of fricatives and affricates: a) s/z/c/dz, b) sz/z.|rz/cz/dz., c) s'/z'/c'/dz' (= s with acute etc.) is equal to any English sounds. Namely, English th/"dh" are interdental, and Polish has no such sounds. Polish s/z/c/dz are narrow dental, and English has no such sounds. English s/z are narrow alveolar, and Polish has no such sounds. Polish sz/z.|rz/cz/dz. are wide alveolar (some "western" phoneticians insist on the term "postalveolar" but it is not compatible with the Polish tradition), and English has no such sounds. English sh/"zh"/ch/j are palato-alveolar, and finally Polish s'/z'/c'/dz' are alveolo-palatal (do not confuse these two terms!). See also http://www.aries.com.pl/grzegorzj/gram/isoen/dict.html, at the bottom of the page ("alveolo-palatal" are sometimes referred as "postdental" or "postalveolar" in the Polish literature).

 

6. From the given sounds, English palato-alveolar sh/"zh"/ch/j can be termed "palatal", and the same about Polish alveolo-palatal Polish s'/z'/c'/dz' (of course, both series are acoustically distinct). Notice that Polish sz/z.|rz/cz/dz., even if similar to English palato-alveolar sh/"zh"/ch/j, are NOT "palatal" or palatalized, at all.

 

7. "I hate it when poor-quality but readily-available language reference books oversimplify or misrepresent foreign pronunciation " - and I hate it either (this is one of the reasons for which my website arose). Including IPA, which cannot present the English-Polish differences clearly (and this is why I do NOT use IPA on my pages and I will not). Note also that even P. Ladefoged, of the IPA team, use special low-dotted symbols for Polish alveolars (for example, the low-dotted "s" and not the integer-like symbol for "sz", http://phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/polish/polish.html).

 

8. trzymac' has y, not i, due to simple assimilation. Both y and rz represent non-palatal(ized) ("hard") sounds. In other words, the "hard" central vowel y will always follow "hard" (non-palatal) alveolar sounds spelt with sz/z.|rz/cz/dz., and it will never follow "soft" (palatal) sounds spelt with s'/z'/c'/dz'. And contrary, the "soft" front vowel i will always follow "soft" (palatal) sounds spelt with s'/z'/c'/dz', and never "hard" (non-palatal) alveolar sounds spelt with sz/z.|rz/cz/dz., at least in native (heredited) lexicon (there are some examples of "szi", "z.i", "czi", "dz.i" combination in borrowed words, and they are pronounced differently from both "szy", "z.y|rzy", "czy", "dz.y" and "si", "zi", "ci", "dzi" - the alveolar consonants are slightly palatalized here, which still does not mean that they are equal to English palato-alveolars! - the difference is that English plato-alveolars (sh-like) are articulated in one place, while the Polish palatalized alveolars (like in "szi") are alveolars with additional palatalization, or a "towards-palatal" gesture). Anyway, I can differentiate P "szy", P "szi", and E "shi" in my pronunciation and hear the differences without problems. 

 

Grzegorz J.