Re: [tied] Re: Convergence in the formation of IE subgroups

----- Original Message -----

From: Piotr Gasiorowski

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:06 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Convergence in the formation of IE subgroups

On 2006-05-12 03:24, Patrick Ryan wrote:

> Prove it! Give us one example of _one_ change in _any_ language
> present in this generation that was brought about imperfect
> transmission from the previous generation — if you can.

Most change is of this kind, at least during its initial stages (what
happens at the propagation stage is the imitation of a successful
innovation by new speakers). Take, for example, the vocalisation of
preconsonantal and final /r/ in British English (the focal area was in
and round London). It was actually condemned by late 18th-century
grammarians and elocutionists as a "sloppy", "lazy" or "vulgar" modern
corruption -- in other words, as a failure by the London youth to
continue the normative pronunciation of their sires. Actually, the
pronunciation of /r/ had been getting gradually and imperceptibly weaker
for decades, and it was only the final stage of the change -- the
complete loss of the consonantal component of what used to be /r/ --
that alarmed the purists. Not unlike /l/-vocalisation in modern London
English.

 

***

Patrick:

 

What you have described certainly does not conform to my definition of 'imperfect transmission'.

 

It is instead an example of the rather common phenomenon of lower-class elision and slurring of sounds, sometimes unfortunately imitated by youth of other classes.

 

The norms were certainly perfectly transmitted but the speech-habits of the lower-class ignored them.

 

What I would call 'imperfect transmission' is, for example, the frequent substitution of /l/ for /r/ made by Japanese speakers who cannot hear or imitate English phones.

 

***

 

 > I predict this will be a challenge which is ignored.

Just for the record: you have predicted erroneously.

***

Patrick:

 

I still maintain that you have not illustrated transgenerational imperfect transmission.

 

***

As for Nostratic, time-depths etc., I've found a very old Cybalist
posting by myself "à propos de tout cela". My opinion hasn't changed:

http://groupsyahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/226

Piotr



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