--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Sergejus Tarasovas"
<S.Tarasovas@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Sergejus Tarasovas"
> > <S.Tarasovas@> wrote:
> > > Alternatively, it could indeed be a late (i.e. invented at the
time
> > the
> > > meaning 'make' was fully established) learned formation, as
Willem
> > suggests.
> >
> > a)
> > So at least 'you start to accept' that *pric^ina is not at all a
PIE
> > formation but based on your new point of view 'a recent internal
pan-
> > Slavic formation';
>
> Please quote from my posting where I state *pric^ina is a PIE
formation.
>
When I started this thread, you told me that this is a Slavic
inherited word (at least this was my understanding) and you have
derived it from the PIE *kWei-n- 'to arrange' + the *pri preffix
Please correct me if I understood wrong because our 'dispute' is
around this topic.
> > b) But if it is 'a recent internal pan-Slavic formation' (that
you
> > start to accept) for sure this word 'should appear first'
in 'Only
> > One of the Slavic Dialects/Languages at that time' and as Willem
> > point out very well in relation with the Russian word => the
right
> > origin of it should be the OCS => and from there a 'church
diffusion
> > of this word in the pan-Slavic word'
>
> I don't quite understand you. Imagine the word in question was
coined in
> Proto-Slavic say, ca. 0 AD (or 500 BC for that matter, since the
pattern is
> productive also in Baltic). What's your problem?
>
> > > AFAIK, 'inquiry' is a possible Romanian meaning of the word,
but
> > not a
> > > Slavic one.
> >
> > I doubt. See Willem, George messages on this aspect.
>
> I've checked their messages painstakingly. Where do they write
*pric^ina
> means 'inquiry' in Slavic? By the way, Willem meant the Russian
*verb*
> pric^init', not the noun pric^ina. The noun is absolutely neutral in
> Russian, with no negative connotations.
>
> Sergei
Sorry, but I cannot split 'pricina' from the verb 'a pricinui' at
least in Romanian : they reflect the same semantism.
please see at:
http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=pricinui&source=
To come back to the topic above. I will really 'quote' again Willem
in relation with your above feedback because his posting really
contains the right answer to your questions (and really reflects also
my initial position also at least in relation with the region where
this word appeared first)
<<
Although it is possible to derive the meaning 'cause' from the
meaning of the component parts of "pric^initi" and "pric^ina", that
meaning does not appear to be old, at least its oldest attestations
appear to post-date OCS by several centuries. Considering the
abstract meaning of the word there is a possibility that it arose in
learned circles.
On the other hand it is striking that Russian "pric^init'" 'cause'
(which stylistically feels like a Slavonicism and has the
corresponding stress pattern) is firmly associated with negative
phenomena such as pain, harm, sorrow, and loss. If that association
is already present in Bulgarian (the first place to look if you are
discussing the Slavic elements of Rumanian and the Church Slavonic
part of the Russian lexicon), the drift to the type of meaning
attested in Rumanian may become understandable after all. >>
>>
This good argumentation really 'lead' us in Balkans in OCS times ->
So this word is either an OCS internal formation or (why not?) an OCS
loan...
It's strange also for me that you didn't stop at least 1-minute on a
possible derivation :
PIE *prk'-no 'request, demand, raised issue' > Romanian(Substratum)
pricina => that maybe didn't happen (we will never know) but at least
is 100% accurate both phonetical as from a semantical point of view
> Imagine the word in question was coined in
> Proto-Slavic say, ca. 0 AD (or 500 BC for that matter, since the
pattern is
> productive also in Baltic). What's your problem?
So I couldn't imagine your above proposal based on the above
Willem's argument (that I fully assumed too)
The word 'appeared first in the Slavic wold' in Balkan in OCS => this
is the most logical explanation that could result until now.
Marius