Re: [tied] Re: Rg Veda date

--- pielewe <wrvermeer@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> > GK: As usual, Ms. Levine needs a lot of
> > correcting. She does admit that the horse had been
> > domesticated "for a considerable period of time"
> as of
> > the Middle Bronze Age Sintashta burials (which
> begin
> > ca. 2000 BCE). And then she rather "bloops" by
> > casually stating that "by the mid-2nd millennium"
> BCE
> > horse-drawn chariots were in use in the Near
> East...
> > As a matter of fact, we know that such chariots
> were
> > in use there at least 1,000 years earlier, as
> > evidenced by the royal seals (with horses drawing
> the
> > chariots clearly depicted) discovered at Ur and
> Kish,
> > reliably radiocarbondated to ca. 2600 BCE (Cf. the
> > reproductions in M.V. Gorelik, "Boievi kolesnitsi
> > Perednogo Vostoka III-II tis. do n.e", in
> Drevniaia
> > Anatoliia, "Nauka":Moscow, 1985, pp. 183-202.) It
> is
> > not a major assumption to claim that
> "domestication"
> > in Levine's sense began in Western Eurasia as
> early as
> > the Early Bronze Age, since the presence of war
> > chariots in the north has also been documented
> from
> > Late Yamna and Catacomb burials. Even so, the
> > systematic large scale use of such tamed animals
> > (beginning ca. 4000 BCE)remains a quite
> significant
> > event in the evolution of human societies.*****
> >
>
> These correctives are certainly very helpful, but I
> can't see that
> they materially change the central issue, which is
> that the
> distinction between taming and domestication is
> vital.

*****GK: If you like, in a certain sense. But a
society where horses were "readily available" for
steady use, and which did use them extensively and
verifiably, is also an important step forward. I don't
think the difference between "taming" and
"domestication" (as Levine understands the
latter)would matter much in such a situation, and the
former would probably lead to the latter in relatively
short order anyway.*****


Those are two

> distinct revolutions, the former of which may very
> well have been a
> characteristic of late PIE-speaking society, but the
> latter of which
> would seem to be more at home in the
> Indo-Iranian-speaking steppe
> societies (or possibly contemporary societies with a
> related
> lifestyle).

****GK: I'm inclined to date the emergence of the
proto-Indo-Iranian(+Nuristani) group in the Late Yamna
period (ca. 3000 BCE). BTW wheeled vehicles had
probably been long available by then (judging by clay
models from the classic Trypilia culture, datable to
ca. 4000 BCE. Depictions in Kulbaka, 2000, p.56,
Fig.3, ns.1,3,4). But these were probably used with
other animals.*****

>
> In this connection I have a question. In reading
> about these matters
> one often comes across claims that put the earliest
> examples of the
> practice of taming and/or the domestication of the
> horse in much more
> easterly areas. Usually the argument hinges on
> subtle issues having
> to do with the dating of organic materials in
> archeological contexts
> that don't always look very promising. Do you have
> an opinion on
> this?

*****GK: Perhaps you mean the famous "Dereivka horse"?
Materials from this head have been radiocarbondated a
number of times, with hugely differing results: some
indicate a period in the 1rst millennium BCE, others
one in the latter 3rd millennium BCE. There was an
article in Antiquity a while back (I forget the exact
date) which pointed out that the head had almost
certainly been contaminated by careless handlers prior
to analysis. But given the secure date for the site as
a whole (ca. 4000 BCE), and many other "horse
materials" (bones, bits) I am pretty confident that
the late 3rd millennium BCE radio carbon date for the
head is consistent with an earlier option. The Botai
discoveries (I'm sure there will be others) indicate
to me that it is the entire expanse of Western Eurasia
that we should focus on for various developments as to
the IE problem, even if some current results point to
"west" rather than "east" (or vice versa). The
interplay between these various cultures was pretty
intense even before Yamna.*****

>
> Best,
>
>
> Willem
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com