Re: [tied] Digest Number 2804

Mkelkar often asks us to visit the website www.voiceofdharma.com. This
site actively promotes Hinduism and favourably reviews books such as
"How I became a Hindu", "Defence of Hinduism", "Heroic Hindu Resistance
to Muslim invaders", "Muslims : the demographic siege", "Hindu
Revivalism", "Report on Christian missionary activity in India", "Who is
a Hindu ?" and even "Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate". I am not sure
voiceofdharma is a reliable source of information.
I read "Update on the Aryan Invasion". Its author asserts that the
Rg-Veda was completed before 4 000 BC and the the Mahabharata around 3
000 BC. The brahmanas, sutras, etc are "the products of high Harrapan
period towards the end of the 3rd millenium BC". Actualy those are
conservative estimates : I have read other Hindu scholars who claim that
the Rg Veda was composed ca. 8 000 BC.
All this of course is UTTER nonsense. Any linguistic, scientific,
exegesis of those texts will reveal that they were composed at a much
later date. The RG Veda in the 2nd millenium BC and the Mahabharata
around the year 0 CE. To say the contrary is a magnificent act of faith
and devotion (for exemple : "The astronomical lore in Vedic literature
provides elements of an absolute chronology in a consistent way") but
has little to do with comparative linguistics.

Having frequented many devout Hindu intellectuals, it seems to me that
mkelkar's posts contain themes that are associated with Hindu
"fundamentalism" (ie. a belief that Hindu sacred scriptures are literaly
true and an obsession with demonstrating this through "scientific"
research). Fundamentalism is a consequence of India's exposure to modern
scientific ideas and the 'revivalist' reaction it has caused among those
hindus who do not want their faith to be subjected to the cold scrutiny
of modern methods of investigation. To learn that their cherrished
sacred scriptures were composed at a recent date and incorporate
religious beliefs that are not native to mother India comes as a
terrible shock to their identity. but hey, Copernicus and Galileo had to
go through that as well...

Some beliefs that are typicaly "fundamentalist" include :

. The belief that India is a sacred (or at least "special") land and the
ur-heimat of all other civilizations.

_ that the great Hindu mythological figures, such as Ram or Arjun, were
real persons who lived 5 000 - 50 000 years ago and fought wars with
horses and chariots. Many calculations have been offered by Hindu
scholars based on "astronomical internal evidence" (the Mahabarata and
the Ramayana mention "celestial phenomenae") which they think proves
without a doubt that the (proto-)Vedic culture started TENS of thousands
of years ago !!! Needless to say, such an assumption would push back the
beginning of agriculture and metallurgy way way back.

_ Lanka and the Rakshas (demons) really existed and were defeated by
Ram. Many Hindus believe that the causeway between India and Sri Lanka
built by the god Hanuman has been discovered by underwater archeologists
thus "proving" that the Ramayana is true.

_ That the holy Saraswati river, the "Gange's sister", was either a
river that dried up thousands of years ago or still exists and runs
"subterreanely". This is of great mystical importance to Hindu
apologetists.

_ that there is no contradiction between modern science and the
teachings of Hindu religious texts and that science will eventually
prove that everything contained in these texts is true.

_ that there is a racially-motivated conspiracy on the part of "Western"
scholars to undermine the faith of Hindus by lying and denigrating
India's glorious past and central position in the universe. Many Hindu
intellectuals believe that once enough "real Hindu" scientists start
studying India's past, the truth will emerge.

A certain amount of pressure is put on Indian archeologists by the rest
of Indian society to make their findings conform to religious teachings.
Funding by the Indian government (especially under the BJP, a
nationalist and very religious one) is more readily available to
archeologists intent on "proving" the Harrapa-Vedic continuity theory.
Many Indian people, regrettably, have great difficulty differentiating
between History and Myth. Leafing through an Indian history textbook for
children is a real eye-opener.
I have seen countless Indian movies in which hansom young archeologists
excavate Lanka and other places mentioned in Hindu holy scriptures. This
is presented in such a way as to make the audience believe that those
mythical places are really being currently excavated. This blurring of
the essential distinction between religion, myth and history can have
momentous consequences (the Ayodha massacres were caused by the belief
that Ayodha was Ram's birthplace).

For those interested in this topic, I strongly recommend the texts
produced by the Indian Rationalist Organisaion which corageously
counters the insidious and nefarious effects of Hindu fundamentalism in
Indian academia. In a scientific debate, there are to be no
politicaly-motivated "hidden agendas". Science is NOT the toy of
religion. You cannot select the data that furthers your religious
convictions and ignore the rest. Religion is respectable in its own
right, to try and prop it up with science is really a sign of how
insecure devout intellectuals feel...

The oldest vedas do not mention such elements of Indian landscape as
tigers, elephants, sugar cane or rice. The words for these are dravidian
(or Munda) in origin and not Indo-European. The Ganges river is never
mentioned, only the Indus and the Sarasvati (which Hindu scholars claim
cannot be the Gange). The inevitable conclusion is that when the Rg Veda
was composed, their authors lived in the northwest of India and only
gradually expanded eastwards. Dravidian speakers are only found in the
south of the Peninsula or in remote mountanous regions (as far north as
Pakistan incidentally) where they survive as isolates. The southern
dravidian languages borrowed indo-european words at a later stage than
that represented by the vedas. Ergo : the Indo-aryan languages spread
from north to south and west to east Try reconciling that with the
out-of-India theory.