[tied] The insufficiency of OIT (was:Re: Of cows and living)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- mkelkar2003 <smykelkar@...> wrote:
>
> you are over looking the
> > fact
> > > > that the text of
> > > > the Rig Veda does not provide any evidence of
> > > > presummed "invasions"
> > > > "migrations," "trickles" what ever one choses to
> > > > call them.
> > >
> > > GK: Neither does the Scythian Foundation
> > Legend
> > > for the Scythians. So the absence of any such
> > > reference in the Rig Veda does not prove that the
> > > Indo-Aryans developed as an autochthonous group.
> >
> > The absence in Scythia foundation legend does not
> > mean the
> > "Indo-Aryans" were not an authchtonous group!
>
> ****GK:The Scythian example PROVES that absence of
> reference to in-migration in a text DOES NOT ESTABLISH
> autochtony on the basis of the intimations of that
> text. The same principle holds with respect to the Rig
> Veda.*****
> >
> > > We have to use other indicators. Those mentioned
> > by Klejn
> > > are pretty good (a combination of indubitable
> > > archaeological and linguistic facts).
> >
> > Use astronomy, geology, and mathmatics for instance.
> > The Rig Veda
> > refers to the River Sarasvati which geologists say
> > dried up around
> > 1900 BCE long before the supposed invisble trickles.
>
> *****GK: Presumably the locals who interacted with
> incoming Indo-Aryans contributed a great deal of
> information subsequently incorporated into the extant
> Rig Veda.

Sarasvati is the most important river in the Rig Veda mentioned 80
times, more than any other river. All the hymns exalting the Sarasvati
are the in present tense not some past memory. So are all the
astronomical observations.


As did the locals who interacted with the

> incoming Royal Scythians in the comparative context.
> Unfortunately the Scythian equivalent of the "Rig
> Veda" has not been preserved.*****



> >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Rig
> > > > Veda and Vedic civilization is *perfectly
> > > > compatible* with Indus
> > > > Sarasvati Civilization i.e "Harrapa."
> > >
> > > GK: I don't think so. Where is the military
> > > war-chariot Harappan aristocracy? Where are the
> > > prototypes of latter-day temples for the worship
> > of
> > > Vedic deities?
> > As for chariots Agarwal (2006),
> >
> > "Archaeologists B. K. Thapar and Rafique Mughal
> > mention that a sherd
> > depicting a canopied cart with spoked wheels was
> > unearthed from
> > pre-Harappan levels at Banawali. R.S. Bisht reports
> > that at Banawali,
> > a pot sherd depicting a canopied cart with spoked
> > wheels was found at
> > pre-Indus levels. Bisht is the excavator of the
> > site. This shows that
> > the Harappans apparently possessed the relevant
> > technology to fashion
> > light vehicles with spoked wheels.
>
> *****GK: This, whatever the "this" is, shows nothing
> at all. When there is accepted identification and
> verification, then and only then conclusions may be
> drawn. This seems for the moment to be in the same
> category as previous blah about decipherment of the
> Indus script.*****

A scholar should not gloat about other scholars' "failed" attempts at
scholarship. It is just not polite. Secondly, the script has NOT been
deciphered to be Munda or Dravidian, which could provide positive
evidence to support IEL theory.

> Chariots as such
> > are not attested
> > in the archaeological record of the Indian
> > subcontinent till about the
> > middle of first millennium BCE,"
>
> ****GK: Could I and others be mistaken about the time
> of the infiltration? In any case the time frame for
> the composition of the Rig Veda seems sufficiently
> plausible.*****

You miss the point. If the pre-Indo-Aryan "Harrpans" lacked chariots
then the post Indo-Aryan lacked them too. Arguments from silence can
cut both ways.

> >
> > If the chariots were brought in by the trickling
> > "Indo-Aryans" then
> > why are they not attested for a full 1000 years
> > after their supposed
> > arrival? In any case the introduction of a new
> > technology does not
> > mean sweeping linguistic and cultural changes.
>
> ****GK: The technology would have arrived along with
> the new language and the new religion.*****

Let us not assume anything unless corroborated by evidence.

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Harappa was a brilliant "middle class
> > > type" civilization, speaking and writing an
> > unknown
> > > language (pehaps Dravidian, perhaps Munda, perhaps
> > X)
> > > which imploded for a variety of reasons.
> >
> > That is correct. The language is *unknown*; and
> > "unknown" includes
> > Indo-Aryan! See Subhash Kak's work on the Indus
> > script as cited by
> > Bryant (2001)
>
> *****GK: The Indus script has not been deciphered, and
> it is certainly not Indo-Aryan except for kooks.*****
> >
> >
> >
> > Its physical
> > > heirs (the Late Harappans) were reorganized as a
> > > "Vedic" society under the religious and political
> > > influence of incoming Indo-Aryans. The notion of a
> > > mass religious conversion (with political and
> > > linguistic implications) seems quite
> > plausible.
>
> > Let us review the facts.
> >
> > 1. A very ancient text Rig Veda is in an
> > "Indo-European" language.
>
> ****GK: Yawn... Does anyone question this?****
> >
> > 2. The text itself does not say its composers are
> > foreign or were once
> > foreign to their present locations.
>
> ****GK: Which does not prove that its fundamentals
> were not imported.*****

It does not prove it WAS imported either. Arguemtns from silence are
not worth much. Positiive evidence is needed to support theories.

> >
> > 3. The text has been preserved faithfuly for
> > thousands of years like a
> > tape recording by the people of the Indian
> > Subcontinent.
>
> ****GK: For which we are all most grateful.*****
> >
> > 4. Every single flora and fauna mentioned in the
> > text occur in the
> > Indian subcontinent, all the rivers are still
> > present except the
> > Sarasvati which has dried up.
>
> *****GK: Fine and dandy.*****
> >
> > 5. The one and only ancient grammarian of any
> > "Indo-European"
> > language, the legendary Panini once lived in South
> > Asia,
>
> *****GK: Good for him.******
> >
> > 6. There is no evidence of any other language ever
> > been spoken in
> > North Western South Asia except the "Indo-Aryan."
>
> *****GK: That is not true except in a trivial
> way.*****
>
> > There is a clear
> > religious,
>
> *****GK: Religious? Where is the proof the classical
> Harappans worshipped Vedic Gods?*****

I once again urge you to read my review of McIntosh (2001). There is
evidence that "Harrapans" worshipped Vedic Gods. Fire alters with
precise geometrical layout have been found. Their is continuity
between Indra and Shiva.

<http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/ait/ch47.htm>

<http://voi.org/books/ait/ch55.htm>

I quote Renfrew:

"Despite Wheeler's comments, it is difficult to see what is
particularly non-Aryan about the Indus Valley civilization"

>
> genetic, archaeological continuity in the
> > region from very
> > ancient times (Kenoyer, McIntosh, Lal, Schaffer,
> > Litchentstein and a
> > host of other archaeologist have repeatedly
> > confirmed this.)
> >
> > May I ask, what then disqualifies the people of the
> > INDIAN
>
> *****GK: The rest was truncated. But really, what is
> your problem? Who denies the Indo-European
> languages-speakers in India appurtenance to the
> Indo-European family? I certainly don't.*****

There is no precise definition of what/who constitue(s)
"Indo-Euoprean." Without such a definition it is impossible to locate
the "original" Indo-Europeans. But there is a rush to judgement in
declaring some people as "foreign" and "natives."

M. Kelkar

> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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