Re: [tied] Re: The personal pronouns of PIE (and other families) ar

Miguel, thank you for that very complete answer on the subject.

Sometimes, it simply bowls me over to think of what knowledge is accessible
through this list.

Needless to say, between you and Brian, you have convinced me.

Thank you both, and Richard, thanks for this "indisputable" example of
pronoun borrowing.

Patrick

***

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: The personal pronouns of PIE (and other families)
are loans


On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:14:57 -0600, Patrick Ryan
<proto-language@...> wrote:

>From: "Richard Wordingham" <richard@...>
>
>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
>
>> >***
>> >Patrick:
>> >
>> >Is there any indisputable example that could be cited?
>> >
>> >***
>>
>> I just cited it: they (from ON þeir, replacing OE híe, héo).
>
>Though possibly eased by cognate _þa:_ 'those' in Old English.
>
>***
>Patrick:
>
>Maybe we should be discussing what "indisputable" means to you and to me?
>
>I would certainly want to dispute your characterization of this example.
>
>It seems to me that the explanation is much easier if we consider _Þa:_ to
>have been influenced/contaminated by _Þeir_.

That is neither easier nor correct. OE <þa:> gives ME
<tho:>, <the>, which regularly develops into the plural
definite article. The emphatic form OE <þa:s> becomes the
ME demonstrative <tho:s(e)> > ModE <those>.

The 3pl. personal pronoun, OE NA. <hi:e>, <he:o>, G.
<heora>, D. <he:om> regularly gives ME N. <hi>, <hy>, G.
<heore>, <here>, <hire>, <hore>, <hure>, <hare>, DA. <heom>,
<hem>, <hom>, <ham> in the South.

In the North, however, where Viking influence was stronger,
we find N. <thei>/<they>, <thai>, G. <theyre>, <thair(e)>,
DA. <theim>, <thaim>, from Norse <þei(r)>, <þeirra>, <þeim>.
There is no influence on the article/demonstrative, which is
<tho:(s)> in the North just as it is in the South.

The new forms gradually made their way to the South,
beginning with the nominative. Chaucer uses nom. <they>
versus G. <here>, DA. <hem>. By the time of early Modern
English, the Norse forms had completely replaced the native
Anglo-Saxon ones, resulting in N. <they>, G. <their>, DA.
<them>. The old form may survive in DA. <'em> (I see/give
'em).

>Is loss of ON final -r regular for _actual_ loans into OE?

Yes. I suppose it was already lost in the Viking source
dialects.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...


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