Re: Indo-Iranian *H2rtá- (was Sanskrit Rta)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "david_russell_watson"
<liberty@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "A." <xthanex@...> wrote:
> >
> > David,
> >
> > Would this then mean that the PII *H2rtá- is only known to
> > have carried such meanings as those which convey the sense
> > of "Cosmic Order" or some such? That PII *H2rtá- does not
> > have any derivatives which carry mundane meanings?
>
> I don't know, but it seems as if the Oss. 'ard' could
> possibly have come by its meaning "oath" directly from
> "fit, put together" rather than by way of "cosmic order".
> At least _I_ don't quite understand how "oath" could
> come out of "cosmic order".

Good point. I was not aware that oath was the meaning carried by the
term 'ard'. I suppose "oath" *might* develop as a term for something
like 'an act which is in accord with the moral order' or some such;
but upon relection "oath"/ard does seem to suggest that the PII
*H2rtá- carried some mundane meanings as well as cosmic meanings.

> > If so then I would only find "mundane" terms deriving from
> > the PIE antecedent *H2rtó- ?
>
> Again I don't know. I'm afraid that my willingness to
> try to answer you is in inverse proportion to my actual
> knowledge. ;^)

LOL... You have gone to lengths to advance my understanding and have
helped me immensely!

> Well beyond the fact that 'arete' is based on the same
> _root_ as 'rta-', I don't know its exact etymology, and
> so whether it involves the same suffix as 'rta-' or not.
> It does seem to me that it might, but hopefully somebody
> on the list better informed about Greek can tell us for
> sure.

Anyone?
Bueller??
Bueller??
Anyone?

> > I may be way off base but IF Arete were a cognate of Rta I would
> > think this would be unexpected; because it would imply that the
> > PIE *H2rtó- was already carrying some sense of "Divine Moral
> > Standard" (or some such concotion) *prior* to the split of the
> > European and Indo-Iranian branches.
>
> Yes, it might very well. Although I think some sense of
> fittingness, appropriatness, excellence, and/or decorum
> is attached to the root *H2er- itself, and thus to its
> other derivatives besides 'rta-', and is what is behind
> the name of the goddess. For me, that doesn't amount to
> cosmological significance, but it may well be what you're
> looking for.
>
> David

Having been informed by Dan Milton that the Goddess Arete is a later
development than the general term meaning "excellence, virtue" ; it
again seems to suggest that while the PIE *H2rtó- may have conveyed a
sense of "moral rightness" among its many derivative definitions, but
that such a meaning was only one of many definitions and that the PIE
*H2rtó- was not reserved for a specific Grand Cosmic/Moral order.
Thus I again seem to be a bit out of luck.

Regards,
Aydan