[tied] Re: PIE voiceless aspirates

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:

>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "david_russell_watson" <liberty@...>

wrote:

> >
> > Keeping in mind that 'H' represents the aspiration of the stop
> > written just before it, while 'h' represents a laryngeal:
> >
> > *etho would divide into syllables as [et.ho], 1st syllable long, but
> > *etHo would divide into syllables as [e.tHo], 1st syllable short.
>
> And you still claim that Old Indian aspirates were the product of
> voiceless stop + *H???

Yes, of course. Did you not read my excerpts of Lehmann and
Burrow? The case they make is really an air-tight one, which
is why it is now the most widely accepted explanation.

Of course you're trying to say that since a short vowel before
a voiceless aspirate in Sanskrit isn't long by position, that
aspirate cannot have come from a sequence of two consonants
in P.I.E. However that isn't the case, as I once asked Piotr,
at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/13409 , this
very question.

I've pasted my question below, followed by Piotr's replies.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: wtsdv
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 7:16 AM
> Subject: [tied] Voiceless Aspirates
>
> The voiceless aspirates in Indo-Aryan derive from a sequence of
> stop plus laryngeal that later became a unit phoneme. Before
> doing so, the first vowel in such words as the following should
> have been long by position, should it not?
>
> prthus 'broad, wide' < *prt-Xus
> vyathate 'trembles' < *vyat-Xa-tay
> rikhati 'scratches' < *rik-Xa-ti
>
> So then after the change of the cluster to a unit phoneme, should
> there not have been compensatory lengthening in the first vowel to
> preserve the metric structure?
>
> David

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Piotr Gasiorowski
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 11:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Voiceless Aspirates
>
> No, there is no universal law of conservation to guarantee that.
> Change can affect syllabification and syllable weight just like
> it affects everything else. We do have compensatory lengthening
> of the type *ksenwos > kseinos [-e.:-], *olwos > oulos [-o.:-],
> or *tinwo: > ti:no: in Greek dialects, but also <ksenos, olos,
> tino:>. Compensatory lengthening is more likely if the lost
> segment belongs to the coda and if there is no resyllabification,
> e.g. RP harm > [ha:m].
>
> Piotr

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
wrote:

>
> In fact, we have good independent evidence of the non-occurrence
> of *VCHV > *V:CV lengthening in the prehistory of Indo-Aryan.
> Perfect forms like cakara (1sg.) : caka:ra (3sg.) derive from
> *kekorh2a and *kekore, respectively. The lengthening in <caka:ra>
> (Brugmann's Law) operated in open syllables, and the laryngeal
> in *kekorh2a was lost at a later date, causing no rhythmic
> compensation.
>
> Stems like *g^enh1es- did not become *g^e:nes- anywhere (Gk. genos,
> Lat. genus, Skt. janas-).
>
> Piotr

- end quotes -

So you see?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:

>
> Love is War!

What does that mean, that you love to fight? I don't, though
I can do it quite well when I have to, and in which vein I
draw your attention to another post of Piotr's which I came
across while searching for those pasted above.

It's at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/16665 .

Give it a look. :^)

David