Re: [tied] *es- or *h1es- ?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, glen gordon <glengordon01@...> wrote:

>
> Etherman23:
> > *dont derives from *ed.
>
> We have the choice of either ignoring Greek and
> Anatolian evidence of *h1- without further explanation
> because we want to be a hip daddy-o...

I'm not ignoring evidence. I fully accept that they show a vowel and
not a consonant.

> Or we can keep square, knowing that *h1C- is distinct
> from *C- in IE and that *h1C- regularly shows VC- in
> some languages. Square is in, baby.

Clyde, you are the king of L7.

> > In some Greek dialects it's even preserved as
> > edont.
>
> Yes, still with prothetic vowel I see.

Actually in this case it's inaccurate to call it a prothetic vowel
since I don't think it was a vowel that was added later on. It was a
vowel that never zero-graded.

> That's the
> whole point. That these vowels show assimilation
> from time to time doesn't really negate the fact
> that these vowels surface when we expect an initial
> laryngeal... all three laryngeals, in fact.

That these vowels show assimilation from time to time doesn't really
negate the fact that these vowels surface when we expect an initial
vowel in Greek... all three vowels, in fact.

> > Greek, it seems, retains the full grade where
> > other languages have the zero grade.
>
> Nice try, but no cigar for you :) The reason is that,
> if you were correct, it would be pretty fishy why
> your supposed VC- stems just happen to retain full-
> grade, when all other stems don't.

Actually we find this pretty regularly in Greek. In non-Greek
languages we find long grades besides zero grades. In Greek we find
long grades beside full grades. Word initially Armenian behaves like
Greek, but elsewhere like the other languages.

Now let's look at the two theories. I say these are vowels that show
up like vowels (we know that ablaut is not perfectly preserved in
every language). You say that these are consonants, that for some
reason or other, show up like vowels instead of consonants. Let's not
multiply entities unneccesarily. Greek, Armenian, and Hittite agree
that these are initial vowels. Why assume that they are consonants
that become vocalic, but in just these 3 languages, and disappear
everywhere else?

> So, it's *?es- alright (or *h1es-, if you must).

How about *es? Then I don't have to invent a consonant that appears as
a vowel only in Hittite.

> All
> you have to do is grow into the fact that while *?es-
> doesn't contrast with **es-, the contrast still seems
> to exist before sonorants (aka: *n- versus *?n-).
> Personally, I think that this contrast is a byproduct
> of Syncope.

Personally I think the contrast is a desperate attempt to explain
everything with laryngeals.