Re: [tied] PIE word for "people"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Grzegorz Jagodzinski" <grzegorj2000@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] PIE word for "people"


> Richard Wordingham wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Grzegorz Jagodzinski"
> > <grzegorj2000@...> wrote:
> >

<snip>

> Because of their oriental features and the wheatish colour of their skin,
> the Roma are considered beautiful and charming.
>
> - One who pleases or delights others. Roma of Europe do please others and
> delight others by their excellent music and dances."
> (http://www.romani.org/rishi/retyrom.html)
>
> As they are popular texts (not less popular than the text of P. Ryan
> anyway), we may believe them or not. But I am curious if really "ra:ma"
> was
> _not_ used as a proper name in the Vedas. If yes, it would be a very
> strong
> argument that ra:ma pl. 'a name of a people' is nothing more than just
> 'the
> Black'. The fact is that many dictionaries do not even mention this
> meaning.
>
> Grzegorz J.

***
Patrick:

If Romani skin-color is 'wheaten', why would a word meaning 'black' be
accepted as a self-designation? Or applied in the first place? Do not bother
to say 'their hair'; most of the world has raven-hair, and this would be a
distinguishing characteristic only in Europe.

Grzegorz neglects in his deliberations the fact that Old Indian ra:ma- can
come from, at least, three separate PIE sources: *re:-mó-, *ra:-mó-, and
*ro:-mó, each, presumably, with distinguishable meaning.

In my opinion, PIE *ra:-mó- means 'colorful'; and this might gravitate
towards 'black', though the better candidate for 'black' is PIE *me/or-(u-),
from pre-PIE *mur(a)(wa).

Complicating matters is the existence of another nuance for *ra:-mó-,
'shaded, pleasant'; in this cast, it is more likely to be have associated
with 'relatively black' from 'shaded'.

If there was a device for distinguishing these two nuances, I have yet to
find it.

I think there is, perhaps, a bit of misunderstanding regarding my proposal
that *ro:m- was an ancient self-designation for pre-PIE speakers.

It is a proposal, and I think the evidence warrants a closer look. The
cognates appear to be widespread; and I would not be surprised if Mandarin
Chinese rén were somehow distantly related.

I am certainly aware of PIE *monu-, 'man', but I suspect that this word has
a more complicated history than we now suspect. More on this later.

Finally, I would ask, if pre-PIE *ru:m- is to be sidelined, who can propose
a better candidate for a self-designation by the people who spoke pre-PIE?
Surely, they had one.

***