Re: [tied] PIE word for "people"

From: Grzegorz Jagodzinski
Message: 40608
Date: 2005-09-25

Patrick Ryan wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Grzegorz Jagodzinski" <grzegorj2000@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] PIE word for "people"
>
>
>> Patrick Ryan wrote:
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...>
>>> To: "Cybalist" <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:29 AM
>>> Subject: [tied] PIE word for "people"
>>>
>>>
>>>> Is there any PIE word meaning "people"?
>>>> Joao SL
>>>
>>> ***
>>> Patrick:
>>>
>>> Yes, I believe so.
>>>
>>> For PIE, we would reconstruct *ro:m-, seen in Latin Ro:ma: and Gypsy
>>> rom, 'man'; Old Indian ra:ma-, 'name of people'

> ***
> Patrick:
>
> Learn how to spell then we will consider all claims of vulgarity,
> including whether you are displaying _extremally_(sic!) vulgar
> rudeness.
> ***

I will leave it to the others to judge who is rude here.

>> 1) Ro:ma: is probably an Etruscan word, so not IE-an, and thus
>> cannot be compared with any Indic word. Etruscan ruma meant as if
>> "ford, wading place"
>> or "bridge", cf. remzna "Pontius" - see Rick Mc Callister's Etruscan
>> Glossary (http://etruscans1.tripod.com/Language/EtruscanR.html).
>
> ***
> Patrick:
>
> Who says Ro:ma: is Etruscan? You? Who cares?

Personal attack, again.

> So, the name of Rome comes from an Etruscan word meaning 'ford'? Was
> there a ford across the Tiber at the site of Rome. No! What a
> pitifully silly etymology.

Yes... naming a town "people" would be pitifully wise.

> Oh, named for a bridge. Same word for
> 'bridge' and 'ford'???? No other bridges across the Tiber so that is
> 'the' bridge? Be real.

Lat. pons, Greek pontos and Russian put'... the same IE word for "bridge",
"sea" and "way"???? Btw. nobody claims that the Etruscan word meant both
"bridge" and "ford" at the same time.

> What is the source of that etymology? Why, Rick McCallister, of
> course? Who is Rick McCallister? Why, nobody, of course.

Oh, how fine, I am not alone now! I am nobody, Rick McCallister is nobody.
Only Patrick Ryan is Mr. Someone. Geez... I feel like in a kindergarten.

Is there such a custom on this list to insult not only one another but also
the absent ones? Sorry, it is not a game I love.

>> 2) Are there towns or villages called just "people"? I am just
>> curious because it seems highly improbable. Instead, the etymology
>> "bridge" or "ford" for a town upon a river sounds reliable.
> ***
> Patrick:
>
> It is common all over the world for tribal names to be simply
> '(hu)men' in the language of the designators.

Oh yes, Mr. Ryan knows that there was a tribe in Italy whose name was Roma.
Could Mr. Ryan inform me what is the reliable source of this revelation? I
have always been thinking that Roma is a place name, not a tribal name. And
the people of Roma called themselves Romani, not Roma. But who am I... lower
than dirt....

>> 3) Gypsy rom < Sanskrit d.omba- 'a man of a lower caste, musician'.
>> This word is not IE and has not any r's.
>
> ***
> Patrick:
>
> Yes, that is the etymology offered by people who believe the Gypsies
> are lower than dirt. Is that your opinion also?

My opinion is that the Gypsies are musicians. And that is why I find this
etymology correct. But who am I... but only Mr. Ryan can be right here. Of
course Gipsies are just Romans... sorry, they were "Roma"... they were Rome
:-).

>> 4) I have not found **ra:ma- 'name of people' - if anybody has found,
>> please
>> cite the source. All I have been able to find is ra:ma- 'dark, black,
>> pleasant, beautiful', also 'kind of deer' and nomen proprium Ra:ma
>
> ***
> Patrick:
>
> Obviously, Sante Fe has crummy Sanskrit resources.

Santa Fe?

> Try Sanskrit-English Dictionary, Sir Monier Monier-Williams, p. 877:
> "pl. N. of a people". Unlike your resource RMCC, I do not make up
> what a need for an argument.

Thank you so much. Yes, you are right, indeed Monier gives such a special
meaning, not even mentioned in other sources. But you know... my native
language does not use articles, and my English is really terribly broken.
But, contrary to you, I am pretty sure what "name of _a_ people" mean. And
it must be obvious for everybody except you that it means "black ones" (or
just "the Negroes") or "beautiful ones". And this word no way can mean
"mankind" or "people".

>>>
>>> It is also in Egyptian rmT, 'men, mankind';
>>
>> I have found the following for 'people, men':
>> mr.w
>> nty.w
>> rXy.t (X = h with arch)
>> wnny.w
>> w?s^.t
>>
>> And rmT = 'man', not 'mankind'
>
> ***
> Patrick:
>
> Apparently, you cannot get hold of a decent Egyptian dictionary
> either.
> Even the cheapest one, A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian,
> Raymond O. Faulkner, p. 149: "rmT, man, pl. men,
> mankind....Egyptians".

Maybe because it is the cheapest

Beinlich Search Results
Word Translation Reference
mw.t-rmT Gebärmutter Wb II S. 54
nxx-rmT.w [Beiname des Sonnengottes] Wb II S. 314
rmT Mensch Wb II S. 421
rmT Menschen (fem.) Wb II S. 424
rmT.t Menschheit, Leute Wb II S. 424
rmT.w Menschen Wb II S. 422
rmT.w Männer (Gegensatz Frauen) Wb II S. 423
rmT.w-nb alle Leute Wb II S. 424
rmT-jz.t Arbeiter Wb I S. 127
rmT-aA Reicher? Wb I S. 162
rmT-mSa gemeiner Soldat Wb II S. 424
rmT-nb irgendjemand Wb II S. 424
rmT-rqw feindseliger Mensch Wb II S. 452
rmT-hA Fronarbeiter? Wb II S. 475
rmT-hAj.t [Arbeiter] Wb II S. 424
rmT-zAw Gefangener Wb II S. 424
rmT-smd.t Untergebener Wb IV S. 147
rmT-grg Ansiedler Wb II S. 424
rmT-D.t Leibeigene Wb II S. 424


Once again, I do not state that rmT.w (plural) did not mean "people,
mankind". I have only stated that rmT (sg.) = "man", not "mankind".

>>> Burushaski rôm, 'clan, tribe, community'.
>
> ***
> Patrick:
>
> Hmmm? You do not question the Burushaski? I will bet I know why.

Because the etymology based on:
1) one word from Sanskrit used incidentally as a name of a people and
normally having different meaning,
2) a town name, with uncertain etymology, but probably related to "passage",
"bridge" or "ford",
3) one word with Old Egyptian, without no good Afro-Asiatic etymology but
possibly related to West Chadic *ram- "land, place"
4) one word from an isolated language
cannot be taken too seriously.

> ***
> Patrick:
>
> When your scholarship is so shoddy, who could possibly care what you
> think? As for your own website, it is trite and jejune. Nothing that
> has not been said a thousand times, and said a hundred times better.
> A complete waste of time.

Thank you so much for your compliments.

> ***
> Patrick:
>
> You really need a good library. There is, of course, PIE *monu-,
> 'man', which correlates with all these except mnyw. Why in God's name
> would anyone think that a 'shepherd' was 'the man'?

"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain"

> You need a course
> in Fingerspitzengefühl also to complement the "IMPLAUSIBLE SEMANTICS
> 101" that you obviously have taken.

Polish "chlop": 1) a man, 2) a farmer

Why would anyone think that a "farmer" is "the man"?

> The proper Egyptian word to
> compare here is mn, 'someone'.

mn nicht vorhanden sein Wb II S. 59
mn Nichtvorhandensein Wb II S. 59
mn in Empfang nehmen Wb II S. 60
mn bleiben, fest sein Wb II S. 60
mn bleibt, der Restbetrag ist... Wb II S. 63
mn der und der, N.N. Wb II S. 64
mn dauerndes Opfer Wb II S. 66
mn [Krug] Wb II S. 66
mn Stoff zum Kleid Wb II S. 66
mn [Maß für Kleiderstoffe] Wb II S. 66
mn krank sein Wb II S. 66
mn Leidender Wb II S. 67
mn [Produkt aus Syrien] Wb II S. 68
mn Berg Wb II S. 69
mn <<Wechsel mit {mA}>> Smith, M.: In: Fs Lüddeckens S. 193 - 210
mn wer? (= {nm}) Meeks: AL 77.1689
mn versetzen Meeks: AL 77.1704
mn getrennt sein(?) Meeks: AL 78.1703



mn 'who?', or 'N.N.', probably secondarily instead of jnm or nm 'who?'.

Sorry, I know it is not a list on Old Egyptian. It was only for rectifying.

Perhaps I "simply do not have the intelligence to participate productively
on this list", and anyway my intelligence is less than this one of Mr. Ryan
but I have also less fantasy than him. And when I do not know something, I
just ask or check, and I do not tell stupid and offensive things.

Grzegorz J.





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