Re: [tied] Re: IE thematic presents and the origin of their themati

Rob wrote:

>> [Piotr:] Could you be more specific?
>
>
> Certainly. If the Ablautend vowel (which I mark as 'a' for the
> stages before its phonetic alternations became phonemic) had a long
> version, it would have been preserved as long only when stressed.
> The unstressed long vowels would have fallen in with the short ones.
> Later, any unstressed Ablautend vowels became o-timbre. So, by those
> rules, the alternation should be one of /é:/ vs. /o/.

In the model that assumes "true long vowels" for (pre-)PIE, the
shortening in pretonic positions leaves a short but full vowel which, by
virtue of being full, attracts the accent and retains its e-timbre (see
below).

>>In those positions where we would expect *e: itself to
>>be lengthened (i.e. superlong), we find *o: (or *o as a conditioned
>>shortened reflex thereof).
>
>
> What are those positions, if you don't mind me asking?

Not in verbs, of course. I've already discussed root nouns with
o-vocalism in the nominative.

>>Finally, Jens's O-prefix/infix theory predicts a long,
>>_secondarily_ accented *ó: in thematic deverbatives and causatives
>>derived from Narten roots (as in *swó:pjeti). In specific
>>conditions we find even more exotic alternations that can be
>>explained in similar ways, cf. *a/*e:/*o: in *káp-je/o- 'take,
>>grasp' with an a-coloured vowel from earlier **kép-je/o- <
>>***ke:p-jé/ó- (Lat. capio:, Goth. hafjan) vs. *ke:p- (perhaps
>>directly reflected in Lat. ce:pi:) vs. *kó:pah2 (Gk.
>>kó:pe: 'handle') from **O-kép-e-h2 < ***O-ke:p-é-h2.
>
>
> How is the accentuation secondary there? I'm having trouble
> understanding this.

Because of a pre-PIE rule shifting the accent, if originally suffixal,
to any pretonic full vowel.

> Regarding Gk. _kó:pe:_ 'handle', it seems that this is a rather late
> formation and analogical to the typical pattern of CoC(C)é: (e.g.
> _poté:_ 'flight'). The initial accent, in my opinion, reflects its
> lateness.

Why should it reflect any such thing? And why do we also have initial
accent in long-grade causatives like *swó:p-je/o- vs. the "normal" type
(*mon-éje-)?

Piotr