[tied] Re: IE thematic presents and the origin of their thematic vo

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, glen gordon <glengordon01@...>
wrote:

> Rob to Piotr:
> > Yes. On the subject of reduplication, it seems
> > that there were at least two stages of the process
> > in IE.
>
> Do you think as I do that the perfect reduplication
> (CeCoC-) is most ancient and that the i-reduplication
> (CiCeC-) is a much later phenomenon? Currently I
> link the latter comes from the treatment of pretonic
> schwa during Schwa Diffusion. A former *C&CéC-
> becomes *CICéC- and then *CiCeC- via Schwa Merger.

It seems to me that the i-reduplication is older, actually. The
perfect reduplication seems more linked to the other form of durative
reduplication, that with e-grade prefix and zero-grade root (e.g. dhé-
dh?-m 'I am placing'): save for the personal endings, both types had
the same form in the plural.

> > Regarding the sigmatic aorist, you're saying that
> > it was originally inchoative in meaning? Could it
> > be related to the neuter s-stems?
>
> As for me, I think it was, which lends more credence
> to the idea that the durative could be a bare thematic
> nominal stem (or sometimes athematic) converted
> directly to a verb without further marking, just as
> the sigmatic aorist appears to be. Hmmm.

I wonder if, in fact, the sigmatic aorist qualifies as a "root
extension". My reasoning is that it in fact seems very old, probably
dating from *before* the advent of alternating stress (otherwise we
should see e.g. *bar-sa-mi > *bhrsóm or *bar-as-mi > *bhrésm).

> > In phonological terms, there is nothing in IE that
> > seems to suggest /sj/ becoming /sk/, so I doubt
> > that Jens is right.
>
> I agree. The sound change apparently would only
> exist in this one example. I can't accept rules like
> that and it's not even necessary because there are
> verbs clearly marked with the 'extension' *-g-
> which I feel should be linked with the particle *ge.
> (Yet another example of unmarked noun-to-verb
> conversion in an earlier stage of IE, by the way.)

I'm not as sure as you are about this, but suffice it to say that if
IE had denominal verbs late in the game, it surely had some earlier
on as well.

- Rob