Re: [tied] The language of Schytians

While totally agreeing with Sergejus, some additional points can be
made:
-Scythians were, for the Greek-Roman world, THE steppe, nomadic,
horse-riding warrior people par excellence. It easily extended to other
peoples having the same features, with no implication as to the language
they spoke.Thus St.Paul uses "Scythian" (in Col.3, 11) with the meaning of
"savage, barbarian", a metaphor which was easily understood throughout the
Hellenistic world. I'm sure that for the already quoted Tzetzes as well,
"Scythian" meant any people of the steppe.[a side remark, one easily
recognizes 'as salaam aleykum" in the Tzetzes quote; should we take it that
those people were already Islamized?]
-That the people Herodotus had in mind was Iranic is beyond reasonable
doubt.I think he records a chieftain called Ariapeithes [arya] and the name
of a Scythian tribe is Dahae (cf.skr. dasa, Iraniic daha). So we have both
terms of the Indo-Iranian arya/dasa opposition in the little material we
have about the (original) Scythians'language, which is quite remarkable.
All the best,
Cristian

----- Original Message -----
From: "george knysh" <gknysh@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 5:43 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] The language of Schytians


>
>
> --- Michael Smith <mytoyneighborhood@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Thoughts?:
> >
> >
> > --- In scythia@yahoogroups.com, Tonyukuk Kagan
> > <tonyukuk_kagan@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > The most politically and convincing hyphotesis put
> > forward regarding
> > the language of Schytians up to this day
>
>
> *****GK: Many different groups were known by that
> appellative over the ages. And they spoke different
> languages. Herodotus' "Royal Scythians" were
> indubitably Iranic-speakers, but their state contained
> "Scythians" who spoke other languages. One could argue
> that "Scythians" spoke a Germanic dialect since a
> number of authors believed the Goths to be
> "Scythians". The Huns were also "Scythians" to some,
> and later the Pechenegs. So Turkic qualifies as a
> "Scythian" language...But since the best known and
> most famous "Scythians" were those of Herodotus, all
> other hypotheses must be viewed as equivocal
> footnotes.*****
>
> is that the
> > one that is of
> > the opinion that They spoke a Proto- Bulgaric
> > (Turkic) dialect. I
> > will touch upon some of linquistic materials which
> > have survived to
> > the present day from Schytian below.I will try to
> > denoting the quite
> > appearent connections between Proto-Bulgars and
> > Schytians by the
> > light of written sources in my spare time)
> >
> > No inquistic text belonging to Schytians with the
> > exception of that
> > written on a silver cup written on a flat silver
> > drinking-cup, was
> > found in 1970 in a royal tomb unearthed in the
> > vicinity of the
> > Kazakh capital Alma-atý.
>
> ******GK: What time frame? Herodotus spoke of a group
> of "Royal Scythians" considerably to the east, but I
> doubt that silver cup belonged to them...*****
>
> It was easily deciphered
> > with the help of
> > Turkic.Olcas Suleymanov read it in that way;
> > Suleymanov's
> > decipherment is accepted to be the most convincing
> > one in the
> > scholarly milieu.
> >
> > Han uya üç otuzu (da) yok boltý, utýgsý tozýltý.
> > ''the son of the
> > Khan died when he was 13 with his death His people
> > died out
> >
> > Indo-Europanist's failure to decipher ýt with the
> > means of Iranian
> > dialects is publicly known and Nothing has resulted
> > from their
> > attemps to explain the same writing as yet.
> >
> > Outside of the Schytian writing found in the
> > vicinity of Alma-
> > atý .The most significant Schytian linquistic
> > materials are those
> > decipherment by Andreas David Mortdman.What are
> > mentioned below
> > revolve around the linquistic relics Schytians left
> > found on the
> > cuneiform tablets built of bricks in the
> > neighboorhood of the city
> > of Sus deciphered by Mordtmann .Schytians are
> > reputed to have left
> > those linquistic relics during their raids into the
> > region under
> > the authority of Persian empire.
>
> *****GK: Again, what groups are we talking about?
> Certainly not Herodotus' Royal Scythians...*****
>
> The list of
> > Mordtmann is as stated
> > below
> >
> >
> Anira,Arta,Ata,Attata,Attari,Atýva,Atza,Balu,Dalva,Dalva
> >
> > açtý,Dalduka,Dalduk,Du,Evidu,
> >
> >
> Gami,Gik,I,Ývaka,Kappika,Karata,Katzavana,Kýçý,Kutis,Kutta,Piri,Rilu,
> > Chagra,Çatanika,Taka,Tan,Tap
> >
> >
> Tarna,tarti,Taufa,Týrý,Ufarri,Ut,Vara,Val,Tarra,Vit,Vurun
> >
> > The most remerkable feature associated with those
> > words is that
> > Almost all of verbs have Turkic origin. In regard to
> > the fact that
> > Any language cannot easily borrow verbs from another
> > one,Mordtmann
> > appreciated the view that the language of Schytians
> > was a Turkic
> > dialect.
> >
> > As opposide to Iranic assumption,the baseles view
> > based on political
> > reasons rather than historical and linquistic
> > ones,Turkic theory is
> > unrivalled at being candidate for their language.
>
> *****GK: Sounds like a petitio principii laced with
> heavy doses of kookery to me....******
>
> The
> > worst part is
> > that Heredotus,our seemingly only source about
> > Schytians, who writes
> > about a Persian invasion of Schytia very
> > specifically says that
> > Schytians were all the way different from Iranic
> > speaking Persians
> > both linquistically and culturally.
>
> *****GK: Must be a Turkic copy of Herodotus
> (:=)))*****
>
> This also
> > contradicts to Iranic
> > theory.I will explain ,in the future, more detailed
> > information
> > concerning Schytian linquistic materials If
> > necessary
>
>
> *******GK: Don't hold your breath******
> >
> >
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> > --- End forwarded message ---
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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