[tied] Re: Short and long vowels

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham"
<richard.wordingham@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Brophey" <TBrophey@...>

wrote:

>
>> It doesn't sound like a good idea to me. The intent is to support
>> Patrick's non-coloring laryngeal hypothesis, right?
>> * It duplicates notation: Your *E = *&1, *A = *&2, *O = *&3
>
> Are these *E, *A, *O vovalic? I had thought they were neutral.
> Also, they're not used on Cybalist.
>

I'm sorry; I am not familiar with the word "vovalic." But you are
defining the symbols so I guess you determine what they mean. In any
case, I thought *E and *&1 both meant an e-colored schwa, *A and *&2
both meant an a-colored schwa, and *O and *&3 both meant an o-
colored schwa. And *&1, *&2, and *&3 are used on Cybalist. So it
seems to me that your proposal duplicates notation.

>> * Your *A collides with Patrick's *A for the Ablaut vowel.
>
> An idiosyncratic notation.
>

To be sure, but an intuitive one: A for Ablaut. In any case it seems
to me there is a need for a symbol to represent this vowel. Would
you like to propose an alternative?

>> * Patrick's zero-grade (as I understand it) is full short.
>
> I think this is muddle - I hope notational. However, it is
> unsatisfactory to dismiss Patrick's idea simply because he cannot
> express it and expand on it well. Such a description clearly

loses

> the distinction between normal and zero grade, which Patrick

should

> wish to make. There are problems with expressing it - precise
> phonetic details are not knowable, but it is not necessarily clear
> when the differences became phonemic. The problem that common
> developments may be misattributed to a common ancestor may be very
> real here. I would rather not have to resort to the likes of '_X'
> for extra-short, or breach the forum recommendations by going

beyond

> Latin-1.
>

Here is how I interpret Patrick:
In Greek, *aH = *a: = /aa/, a two-mora vowel;
under zero-grade this reduces to *a = /a/, a one-mora vowel.
In Greek, *eH = *e: = /ee/, a two-mora vowel;
under zero-grade this reduces to *e = /e/, a one-mora vowel.
In Greek, *oH = *o: = /oo/, a two-mora vowel;
under zero-grade this reduces to *o = /o/, a one-mora vowel.
In Sanskrit, *aH = *a: = /ay/, a two-mora glide;
under zero-grade this reduces to *i = /i/, a one-mora vowel.

Perhaps this is just my interpretation, and I certainly agree that
precise phonetic details are not knowable. But I see no reason to
assume there is an extra-short vowel.

>> I second Pavel A. da Mek's comments on this (in post 39370).
>
> I was describing practice here, where aspiration is normally
> written 'H' rather than 'h', even in Greek.
>

I've only been monitoring Cybalist for a few weeks now, but my
experience of the practice is precisely the opposite. The usage I
see is overwhelmingly bh, dh, gh, H1, H2, H3. See Pavel's post:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/39370.
I have no personal preference, but this is what I see.

Tom