Re: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Brophey" <TBrophey@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:28 AM
Subject: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels


--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-
language@...> wrote:
> At the PIE pre-break stage (Hittite from PIE), I believe /?/
and /h/ (from pre-PIE /h/ and /H/; Nostratic /¿/ had already become
PIE /y/) were still present.

I said earlier that was having trouble digesting your detailed
response. It turns out that my problem was understanding your
laryngeal notation. When I skipped over that I had no problem.

First of all, in your post 39241, which touched off all the
discussion of non-coloring laryngeals, you said, "... I think that,
of the four laryngeals in Nostratic (/?, h, ¿, H/), by pre-PIE, only
two remained: /?/ and /h/, neither of which had 'coloring'
properties." Let me verify my understanding:
* /?/ is the glottal stop?
* /h/ is the unvoiced glottal fricative?
* /¿/ look vaguely like a voiced pharyngeal fricative. And
* /H/ doesn't look like any IPA symbol I know of.

***
Patrick:

It was my error not to make this clear.

/¿/ is Arabic ¿ain, a voiced pharyngeal fricative; /H/ was meant to indicate
He:, a voiceless pharyngea. fricative; really parallel to /?/ and /h/ at a
lower articulatory position.

***

When you used *H in the discussion of vowel lengthening, was in the
different sense of a generic laryngeal *h/? right?

***
Patrick:

Yes, but also to include /?/, since I think their affect on vowels is
similar or identical. So *H = /?/-/h/.

***

Finally I suspect you made some error in "/?/ and /h/ (from pre-
PIE /h/ and /H/" above. Surely you don't intend to say /h/ is from
pre-PIE /H/. If not, what did happen to pre-PIE /H/? And you
probably don't intend to say /?/ is from pre-PIE /h/.

***
Patrick:

I can see how one could be puzzled.

I meant there that PIE /h/ derived from both pre-PIE /h/, and /H/, the
voiceless pharyngeal fricative.

PIE /?/ derives only from pre-PIE /?/.

Pre-PIE /¿/ becomes PIE /y/, and does not figure into the 'layngeal'
question.

Sort of intriguing with the *y-coloring of the laryngeal *H in I-I
zero-grade, hmmm?


***


Tom