Re: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels

----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Wordingham

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 11:35 PM

Subject: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Jens Elmegaard Rasmussen <jer@......>
wrote:

> Both scholars also showed, immediately assisted
> by Rix, that some of the analogical explanations for schwa reflected as
> Greek /e/ and /o/ are morphologically impossible, and that there
> consequently is no possibility of accounting for the Greek laryngeal
> reflexes by a PIE inventory containing less than three laryngeals.

I didn't think the number of PIE contrasts was the issue.  I
understood that Patrick's thesis was that the contrast lay not in the
laryngeal itself, but in the quality of the associated vowel.  Thus
*&1, *&2 and *&3 would phonetically include an oral vowel, and the
distinction lie in that vowel rather than any associated consonant.

 

***

Patrick:

 

Well, Bozhe moi, at least one person has understood what I have beentrying to convey — agreement is not necessary but simple understanding is very welcome.

 

The examples Jens chose all would be reconstructed by me with /?/ though I think /h/ was present also.

 

As you write, I think the phonological reality was /e?/, /a?/, /o?/,  /eh/,  /ah/, or /oh/.

 

***

 

Patrick has consistently failed to address how, for example, *&1 would
have differed from *e or *eH, but that is a failing of Patrick, not
his thesis.  A labelling of stages might help Patrick's argument.
(What stage/branch, for example, does  *k^era?-tó-s correspond to?)  I
haven't yet seen any arguments demonstrating that the contrast was not
carried in a vowel, albeit ultra-short.  The biggest problem I see for
Patrick's theory is in the apparent correlation of vowel colour and
Hittite consonant.

***

Patrick:

 

My answer would be that I see no value in reconstructing *&. I think that the better way to look at situations where *H would be avocalic would be to simply regard /a/ or /y/ as an allophone of *H.

 

I will probably get into trouble for saying: *k^era?-tó-s, pre-division PIE.

 

I have Melchert, and and I am sure he will be informative, but I have not had a chance to read him yet.

 

Could you give me an example of  "apparent correlation of vowel colour and
Hittite consonant", and I wll try to explain it within the framework I have proposed.

 

***