From: elmeras2000
Message: 39183
Date: 2005-07-11
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "P&G" <G&P@...> wrote:
While this is welcome and apparently needed, your information is not
completely without its own complications.
> On PIE "thorn"
>
> It may be helpful to give a little more information.
> In addition to the roots already mentioned, there are:
>
> Greek /ktisi/ ~ Skt ks.ití ~ Av s^iti "living quarters"
> Greek /phthisis/ ~ Skt ks.íti ~ av xs^yo: "desctruction"
The Av. word is a hapax (Y.31.20), of quite unsettled meaning. This
depends on what the Gathas are about.
> Greek /ktizw/ ~ Skt ks.eti "settle"
Av. has s^.ae:iti matching ks.éti exactly and proving palatal
initial.
> Greek /ktaomai/ ~ SKt ksayati "get"
The Skt. derivative ks.atram 'rule' is Av. xs^.a{th}r&m proving non-
palatal initial.
> and in medial position:
> Greek /arktos/ ~ Skt r.ksa "bear"
Av. ars^.a- (from &rs^.a-) proves palatal.
> and in final position
> Greek /tekto:n/ ~ Skt taks.ati "weave, etc"
Av. ta(:)s^.- proves palatal.
>
> The consonant following the root vowel is never a stop, in any of
the words
> with a "thorn" cluster. (This is also true for all roots in Greek
where pt
> alternates with p, or where Greek pt corresponds to p outside
Greek).
> This pattern points to a rearrangement from an original **CeC-R
to *CCeR.
>
> From these words we can build up corresponence tables:
>
> Pokorny * k^þ Vedic ks. Avestan s^ Greek kt
> * kþ Vedic ks. Avestan xs^ Greek kt
> *kWþ Vedic ks. Avestan - Greek pt
> *g^ð Vedic ks. Avestan - Greek chth
> *gWHð Vedic ks. Avestan Gz^ Greek phth
The third row with labiovelar *kW seems based on nothing. There has
been the example Gk. ophthalmós 'eye' : Ved. aks.i- : Av. as^i 'two
eyes', but the Greek word is rather a compound containing
thálamos 'cave', and the sibilants of the IIr. forms are rather
obviously from the dual forms of 'ear', Av. us^i 'two ears'.
The fourth row should be aspirated palatal, IE *g^hð; the series may
be given Av. z (as in zam- 'earth').
>
> There is also evidence from Hittite and Tocharian, but it is not
as
> straightforward as has been claimed on this list.
> e.g. the Tocharian "earth" word appears as tkam (Toch A) but also
as ksaise
> (older Toch B) and this later form points to a pre-Tocharian kt-
cluster,
> not tek-.
Actually TA tkam. , TB kem. . I do not know what the word ksaise is
supposed to be. Where have you got it from? It has already caused
some commotion on the list, so it would be nice to know if it really
exists.
>
> Greek likewise shows variation in forms, but these may be internal
> developments.
>
> Overall the best explanation seems to be as Jens suggests, but I
don't think
> we should pretend this is without problems.
I second the second part of that.
Jens