From: Miguel Carrasquer
Message: 39159
Date: 2005-07-10
> ----- Original Message -----Indeed this is a major argument in favour of *dheg^h-.
> From: Miguel Carrasquer<mailto:mcv@...>
> Yeah, he [Pokorny] says that the Hittite and Tocharian forms are not
> related, which is unacceptable.
>
> The reconstruction *g^hðo:m is a past station, nobody
> belives in that anymore.
>
> ***
> Patrick:
>
> So what if Hittite and Tocharian are related or unrelated. Both could
> have easily independently metathesized the word as have inherited it for
> a mutual source.
>
> Actually, that is the way it looks to me - independent. If they had a
> common source, why has Tocharian lost the root-vowel (tkaM) while Hittite
> has retained it (tekan) - if it has?
> ***Not even you believes that. It is absolutely clear that
>
>
> > The order dental-velar is proven by Hittite <tekan> and
> > Tocharian A <tkam.>. That's conclusive.
> >
> > ***
> > Patrick:
> >
> > So, two examples (you like) trumps two examples (I like).
>
> Of course. Metathesis *dhgh- > *ghdh- is trivial,
> velar-to-dental clusters being easier to pronounce than
> dental-to-velar ones ["harmonic clusters"] (see Gamqrelidze
> and Ivanov or Gamqrelidze and Machavariani for parallel
> phenomena in Kartvelian). The Hittite form, on the other
> hand, shows the consonants in their original order with an
> intervening vowel. There is no reason whatsoever for
> Hittite to have metathesized *g^hedh- to *dheg^h-, so
> *dheg^h- is the original order. As confirmed by Tocharian
> <tk->, and by *g^h- (with loss of the initial consonant, as
> expected) in Sanskrit (jmas, gmas), Avestan, Balto-Slavic,
> Greek (khamai), Latin, Germanic, Tocharian...
>
> ***
> Patrick:
>
> "Of course"? Ah yes, argumentum ex superbiâ.
>
> And, of course, Pokorny agress with Benvenise not with you:
> ". . . ich würde die hitt. und toch. Formen mit Benveniste
> lieber fernhalten."
> "Easier to pronounce" - is that what you think motivates metathesis?Yes.
> As we covered in an earlier round of comments, both (dhgh and ghdh)Apparently not for native speakers of Ancient Greek (*titko:
>are equally "easy" for a native speaker.
> tikto:). The harmonic cluster /kt/ is generally easier topronounce than the inharmonic cluster /tk/.
> As far as the referenced Georgians are concerned, if they wrote thatGamkrelidze and Machavariani are the authors of the standard
>the sun had come up this morning, I would withhold judgment until I
>looked out the window for an accurate answer.
> "There is no reason whatsoever for Hittite to have metathesized *g^hedh- to *dheg^h-."Yes there is: Greek always metathesizes clusters like this
>
> There is also no reason whatsoever for Greek to have metathesized and zero-graded *dheg^h- to
> *g^h(e)dh-!
> Now you introduce a rule that in initial consonantal clusters, theIt's plain phonetics: in an initial cluster of two stops,
>_first consonant_ will be eliminated if either is. How about a few
>more examples of that unrelated to this root?