Re: [tied] Alb. djathtë -- Where does the come from? (the sol

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
wrote:

> Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
>
> > I am afraid that as you, as Marius have arrived to cheese-cake in
> > Albanian <pite me djathë>?!
>
> :)

We are on the good way Abdullah....

> Now, this is a summary of what we know for certain:
>
> 1. <ja> is the development of *e > *iä in syllables that were

closed in

> Proto-Albanian.

I agree.

>
> 2. The <t> in <djathtë> is secondary and so can't be responsible

for the

> <ja>. What we have to explain with recourse to PIE forms is the

<djath->

> part (not to be confused with a cube of feta).

It's true. djathë (Buzuku)

>
> 3. The reconstructible PIE words for 'right' are *dek^si-no-,
> *dek^si-tero-, *dek^si-wo-; the *i was syncopated so early in some
> branches (cf. Slavic *desn-, Goth. taíhswa, OHG zeso), that

variants

> without it might even have existed in the protolanguage.

True also.

> 4. We have at least one certain example of a *-k^s-C- cluster in
> Albanian, gjasht < *sek^s- + *-tah2, with early loss of *k^. Note

that

> the extension is old enough to have conditioned the development of

the

> diphthong to <ja>. The deletion of *k^ must be a case of cluster
> simplification (by dropping the first element). We may therefore

expect

> other instances of *-k^sC- > *-sC-.

True also :
the Rule for Cst Cluster is: PIE *Cst > Alb. sht

> Unsuffixed *dek^s- does not seem to occur with the meaning 'right',

and

> since Albanian shows no trace of -no- or -tero- in this word,
> *dek^siwo-, or rather its syncopated variant *dek^swo- is the

likeliest

> protoform of <djath->.

I agree too.



==========================================================

> If *k^s was reduced to *s in Pre-Albanian before
> another consonant, the expected development shoukld be like this:
>
> *dek^swo- > *deswo- > ?
>
> We know that before a stressed vowel *sw > *zw > *Dv > Mod.Alb. d.

We

> would expect the parallel development of *sw > *Tv > T (the

voiceless

> fricative is never "hardened" to a stop), but no examples have been
> proposed so far. But now we have one! To continue,
>
> *deswo- > *diäsw- > *diásw- > *djaTv- > djath-
>
> The *sw cluster accounts for the <ja> and for the <th> at the same

time.

> We also know what happened to the *k^: it was simply lost, as in

the

> word for 'six'. All the steps are parallelled by other developments

in

> Albanian, and tout se tient without any ad hoc tricks.

===============================================================
From here Piotr please revise it, doesn't sound very good:
a) the exsitance of w in djathë is a pure supposition
b) you cannot linked djathë with gjashtë where we have k'st
c) *sw > *zw > *Dv > Mod.Alb. d. is unprobable despite djell
(I will come back here -> in djell we have a protethic d,dh < *dz)
d) *sw > *Tv > T is impossible.

The ad-hoc trick is a simple rule Piotr : k^s > c > th

Also k^ gave regulary th but you supposed that in djathë < *dek^s was
simple lost!!!!

In place of the regular k^ > th you have invented for th:
sw > Tv > th ??? With No Other example..........

And in addition it's you that talked about ad-hoc tricks regarding:
k^s > c > th.

I cannot understand what you try "to save" here, with all these
workarounds?

Best Regards,
Marius