Re: [tied] Albanian intervocalic s

>[AK] wrote:
>You are wrong. PIE *plok'-so > Alb. plah/plaf 'thick covering/rug',
>suffixed form <pëlhurë> 'woven cloth, , textile', due to my

metathesis

>of liquids L - V > V - L / R -V > V- R, when vocal after liquid pass
>in unstressed position. See also *(s)pok'-so > pah 'view,
>perspective'.

There is no *plok'-so, for Alb. plah, Abdullah.
See Demiraj on the web at Leiden: Alb. plah has a regular ending: -
ske/o
url: http://www.indo-european.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?
root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\alb&first=351&sort=albform

(I don't want to say that Demiraj is always rigt but -ske/o is the
regular ending here)

II.

>[AK] wrote:
>About PIE *dek's-to > Alb. i djathtë 'right' and *eg'hs-to > Alb.
>jashtë 'out', if we accept Jens' rule that *e yields /ja/ after
>secondary cluster, than *e > ja is regular. Also you must take into
>consideration that in these examples we have syllabic structure

CVCCCV

>that was normally reduced to CVCCV, so as /k'/ as well as /g'h/ are
>dropped.

a)
-të in djath-të is recent formation in Albanian.
There is no -tht- formation in today Albanian, that could
originate 'directly' from a PIE cluster
See for a more older cluster *k'st the Albanian gjashtë > sek's-to
=> So at least sht but not tht
(I strongly suspect that this sek's-to is not a PIE formation (as
Piotr proposed us some time ago) but a more recent one,
but at least sek's-to is much much older then djathtë...)
url: http://www.indo-european.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?
root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\alb&first=151&sort=albform

b)
See also Demiraj that talks abouth djathë too.
Do you have also in Albanian the worb ngjath, as Demiraj
presented, where there is no -të inside?
url: http://www.indo-european.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?
root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\alb&first=311&sort=albform

So there is no CVCCCV here...it's simple *dek's-

III.

>[AK] wrote:
> As I have said, Alb. <kohë> 'time' is in many contexts fully

synonymic

> with Alb. <moshë> 'age', the reason why we must also respect Latin
> <cascus, -a, -um> 'old, ancient, primitive'. This is an argument

> that we must back up PIE recunstructions *keH1s-k'-aH2, for /*k'/ >
> Sl. /s/.

Sorry to ask you, but:
What are the semantism of this k' here? What cognates do you have?
Why is mandatory to suppose k'? (Seems that Derksen and Demiraj
didn't see any k'...)

Best Regards,
Marius

P.S. Regarding the similar metathesis that you have proposed (none of
them related to swe > wes), I'm not sure about your derivations.

To take one example:
zog for example doesn't have solid cognates to be sure on it.
To suppose in addition a metathesis regarding zog, will make less
probable its derivation...that for sure is difficult from the
begining.
See also a different derivation for zog (with no metathesis):
url: http://www.indo-european.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?
root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\alb&first=491&sort=albform

Best Regards again,
Marius

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Abdullah Konushevci
<akonushevci@...> wrote:

> On 6/19/05, alexandru_mg3 <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
> > Hello Piotr,
> > The existence of an intervocalic s that passed to h in Proto-
> > Albanian is strongly related to the correct derivations for Alb.

kohë

> > and Alb. gjuhë
> > (also vjehërr is a strong candidate too)
> >
> >
> > I. Alb. hohë - Sl. c^as& - OPruss. kisman < PIE *ke:s-a:
> > =========================================================
> >
> > See Derksen Derivation: PIE *ke:s-
> > ====================================
> > "Proto-Slavic form: c^as&
> >
> > Old Prussian: ki:sman `time' [Accs]
> >
> > Other cognates: Alb. kohë `time'
> >
> > Proto-Balto-Slavic reconstruction: ke:s-"
> >
> >
> > See Demiraj derivation: PIE *keh1s-(u-)
> > ========================================
> > "
> > Albanian form: kohë [f] (tg)
> >
> > Meaning: time; span; weather; epoch
> >
> > Proto-Albanian: ke:ua: {1}
> >
> > Page in Demiraj AE: 221
> >
> > IE reconstruction: keh1s-(u-)
> >
> > Meaning of the IE root: time?
> >
> > Page in Pokorny: 636
> >
> > Other IE cognates: OCS c^as& `time'; OPr. ki:sman `time'
> > "
> > Demiraj preferred s > zero and u > h but the original root is
> > considered ke:s- too.
> >
> > Your proposed derivation was:
> > ==============================
> > *keh1k^-sah2 > kohë 'time' (cf. Slavic *c^asU 'id.')
> >
> >
> > Now to analyse your derivation:
> > =======================
> > 1. For kohë you have used an additional k^-sa: in place of -sa:

again

> > only not to explain the h from a simple s
> > But there is no need to add an 'additional k^' (see also

Demiraj

> > and Derksen derivations above using ONLY an *V-s-V).
> > So when I previously have talked about 'additional k^ used as
> > an 'workaround' in your derivation' I made reference at the k^ in

your

> > derivation above.
> >
> > 2. In addition : an original k^s will give in Albanian th and

NOT h:

> > k^s > tss > ts > th see:
> > Alb. djathë and djath-të 'right' but also ndjath 'to the right' <

PAlb

> > *deca- /detsa/ < *decsa /detssa/ < PIE dek^s-
> >
> > See also Albanian ith < PIE *eg^hs (for a similar output: g's >

dzs

> > > ts > th )
> >
> > 3. So you need to use an original *sk^ or a *sk but not a *k^s in
> > order to obtain the h.
> > Only sk^ or sk gave h via a LATER Metathesis to k(^)s.
> > But this later k^s (I don't think that existed, it was only ks,

but

> > let's accept k^s too for the argumentation) it was at least

another

> > k^s with no link with the original one that merged already k's >
> > c /ts/ > th
> >
> > Note-1: In a very good article (2001) Lubotsky came back to

Meillet

> > position showing that there was no oposition between sk' and sk

> > Satem Languages.
> > So sk' > sk already in IE. But anyway an original PIE *k^s will

not

> > generate h in Proto-Albanian, you need an original sk^/sk for

this.

> >
>
> [AK]
> You are wrong. PIE *plok'-so > Alb. plah/plaf 'thick covering/rug',
> suffixed form <pëlhurë> 'woven cloth, , textile', due to my

metathesis

> of liquids L - V > V - L / R -V > V- R, when vocal after liquid pass
> in unstressed position. See also *(s)pok'-so > pah 'view,
> perspective'.
> About PIE *dek's-to > Alb. i djathtë 'right' and *eg'hs-to > Alb.
> jashtë 'out', if we accept Jens' rule that *e yields /ja/ after
> secondary cluster, than *e > ja is regular. Also you must take into
> consideration that in these examples we have syllabic structure

CVCCCV

> that was normally reduced to CVCCV, so as /k'/ as well as /g'h/ are
> dropped.
> As I have said, Alb. <kohë> 'time' is in many contexts fully

synonymic

> with Alb. <moshë> 'age', the reason why we must also respect Latin
> <cascus, -a, -um> 'old, ancient, primitive'. This is an argument

> that we must back up PIE recunstructions *keH1s-k'-aH2, for /*k'/ >
> Sl. /s/.
>
> > II. swek^uro > swesuro
> > ========================
> > For swek^uro you have used a supposed metathesis wesk^ura to

obtain a

> > sk^ for the Albanian h in place of a simple s
> > But you don't have any other example of such Metathesis: swe >

wes

> >
> > Also a derivation like the one below don't raise any issue:
> > *swek^ura < [alternance k^<->s as in thumbull<-> sumbull] <

*swesura >

> > [sw>w] > *wesura < [V-s-V > V-h-V] > *wehura
> >
>
> [AK]
> If we have the metathesis in *ker-w- > *kwer- (-erw- > -wer-) in

Alb.

> <sorkadhe> and *g'ha:gwh > *g'hwa:gh > Alb. <zog> 'bird' (-a:gwh- >
> wagh-|), I can't see no reason to not support also *swe- > *sew-.
>
> > III. gjuhë
> > ===========
> > I don't know your derivation for Alb. gjuhë 'tongue' - but I'm

sure

> > that a k^, k^-sa:, s-k^a: will appear as an workaround to obtain

the h.

> >
> > Alb. gjuhë is very probable cognate with Sl. go:ls& -> Once again

> > have s in both forms with no additional k^ etc...
> >
> > See Derksen:
> > =============
> > "Proto-Slavic form: go:ls&
> > Old Church Slavic: glas& `voice' [m o]
> > Indo-European reconstruction: golH-so-
> > Page in Pokorny: 350
> > Other cognates: W galw `call' [verb]
> > "
> >
> > For the derivation of Albanian gjuhë:
> > PIE *gl.sa: (zero-grade) > *gulsa: [l. > ul > lu] > *glusa: [gl >

gj;

> > V-s-V > V-h-V] > gjuhë
> >
> > For both forms, Slavic and Albanian, we have only an original s

(no

> > trace of k^), that became intervocalic s in Albanian after l. >

ul > lu

> > (ul>lu because otherwise an *ls will never gave h in Albanian

(also gl

> > > gj is the regular output))
>
> [AK]
> Alb. <gjuhë> 'laguage, tongue', to my view, is derived from PIE

*del-

> 'to recount' from suffixed zero-grade form *dlH-sk'a: > glH-sk'a:
> (*-rH- > ur and *-lH- > ul, otherwise syllabic *r. > ri, *l. > li

and

> aspirated syllabic *r.H > ar and *l.H > al).
>
> > Best Regards,
> > Marius Alexandru
>
> Konushevci

Re: [tied] Albanian intervocalic s > h