--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
wrote:
> alexandru_mg3 wrote:
>
> > We already have had an S /sh/ after u:,u,i,i: in Proto-Albanian
> > times. This indicates an ancient Ruki-Rule at least for u:,u,i,i:
> >
> > Timeframe-1:
> > Ruki.1 PIE *u:s > PAlb *u:S
> > Ruki.2 PIE *us > PAlb *uS
> > Ruki.3 PIE *i:s > PAlb *i:S
> > Ruki.4 PIE *is > PAlb *iS
>
> [SIGH] How can you know that if *s also gives <sh> in other
positions?
> Cf. asht 'bone' < h2ost-, vesh 'dress' < *wos-éje-, etc.
Furthermore, *s
> is lost after *r and yields <h> in clusters with *k(W,^), so what
kind
> of "ruki" is that?
>
> Piotr
> [SIGH] How can you know that if *s also gives <sh> in other
positions?
I. before to suppose that *sh was present in Early Proto Albanian
I saw that we have 2 situations regarding an intervocalic s:
a) V-s-V > h : based on gjuhë and kohë (also based on vjehërr)
This intervocalic s gave h in PAlb (there are other examples
indicating a later h>zero for some other cases)
So if you show me that this case a) doesn't exist at all: Ok, I will
completly review the point I.....
b) V-s-V > sh: based on gjysh and dash etc...
Having 2 cases is normal to suppose (without any additional
workaround) that the PIE *V-s-V has had 2 outputs in Early Proto-
Albanian.
This was my first conclusion.
II. The second step was to try to find which was these 2 outputs of
the PIE *V-s-V in Early Proto Albanian.
II.a I supposed first that one of these forms was still s. (by
aplying the logic of minimal number of changes in order to can
explain the 2 different situations)
II.b.1 the other form that I suspected to be was S /sh/ based on :
Romanian - Albanian Common Words where I saw that for a Rom sh - Alb.
sh we have always an u,u: in front of this sh
Alb. mushk <-> Rom. mushkoi
Alb. gjysh <-> Rom. ghiuj
Alb. këpushë <-> Rom. kãpushã
NOTE: We have a single example of Rom. s <-> Alb sh =>Alb. brushtullë
<-> Rom. brusture but here I suspect that we don't have an original
s.
Knowing that PAlbanian - PRomanian contacts ended around 600-700 AC
and that the normal treatement of Latin s is Romanian s (with the
exception of Lat. si > Rom sh), I suspected that this common Rom.<->
Alb. sh is older then the Albanian transformation Alb. s>sh (sec V-
VII)
II.b.2 Next viewing the u,u: here I thought that the logical
explanation is to suppose a RUKI rule for u,u: and maybe for i,i:
too.
(For r and k I didn't check yet, so I have nothing to say, maybe we
don't have RUKI for r and k in Albanian (so we have only an UI-Rule
in Albanian, but I didn't check...).
However, in Lithuanian also we have a complex evolution regarding the
Ruki Rule.
> [SIGH] How can you know that if *s also gives <sh> in other >
positions?
To resume again 'how can I know' the answer to your question is:
1. first because we have 2 different outputs of an original *s/V-
s-V : we have s>h and s>sh both in intervocalic position.
2. because V-s-V > h doesn't appear for the cases when we have
u/u:/i:/i in front of s. So after u/u:/i:/i, there was no s when s/V-
s-V > h happened.
(3.) also because we have sk > h and sk>shk so I supposed again
that the original s have had also 2 outputs in PAlbanian Times.
This explanation for sk>h and sk>shk (but I didn't check) would be a
more organic explanation in place to say that there is a s-that comes
and go...Even is wasn't sh and s the ideea of 2 different outputs
still remain in place.
4. The Common PAlb. PRom words show sh <-> sh after an u.
Now to take your examples, too:
1. I doubt that vesh 'dress' was *wos-éje- (I agree that your
derivation gave the correct result 'via Umlaut', but the original
root is wes- so anyway 'vesh' is an 'adapted/derived' form...
Also I found that *wos-eje doesn't respect very well the rithmic
rules)
On my side, I propose *wo:us-eje (o:>e eu>e) (syllables-by-
syllables wo:u-se-je -> that at least is more easy to be pronounced)
timeframe-1. s passed to sh because is before u
2. 'Cf. asht 'bone' < h2ost-' => here we have:
timeframe-1. s remain s because is not before u/i/u:/i:
timeframe-2. s didn't pass to h because is not intervocalic
timeframe-3. s passed to sh globally (sec V-VII)
Best Regards,
Marius