Re: [tied] Re: Middle Voice

Thanks, Richard. The gist of what you're telling me is that the middle voice expresses those things that are done for one's own benefit. In English such verbs are still considered active, I believe, so I will probably still have difficulty understanding when English active verbs would be expressed by middle verbs in Greek or early Sanskrit. I will try to analyze English verbs as to whether they express actions done for one's own benefit or not, and therefore whether in Greek or early Sanskrit they would be expressed by the middle voice. The reason why I want to understand the true significance of the middle voice is because I have a hobby of inventing languages that could have evolved from Proto-Indo-European, and have found it difficult to justify retaining a separate middle voice in any of these languages, since I did not really understand what the middle voice signified. But I will try now to see if I can deduce in my native language opportunities for use of the middle voice. I also found an entire book on Amazon.com about the function of the middle voice in Greek (I think this book is about Modern Greek, not Classical), so when I have the money I may buy it.

Thanks again.

Andrew

Richard Wordingham <richard.wordingham@...> wrote:

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...> wrote: > I am calling on you various scholars to please help me out with a difficulty I have regarding Greek and Sanskrit grammar. > I don't really understand the meaning of the "middle" voice. The middle is definitely not the same as a reflexive, unless you would count 'He baked himself a cake' as reflexive. The textbook explanation of its meaning is that the action affects the doer, e.g. for his own benefit. The second point is that the middle does not carry the active / passive distinction, which is where the following examples are relevant: > Many people who explain the middle voice to English speakers use examples such as "the cake bakes in the oven", "his book sold a thousand copies", and the like. But to me such expressions are really passive, i.e. the cake is being baked (by the baker) in the oven, and a thousand copies of the book were sold. The lack of an active/passive contrast is better seen in English in infinitives and gerunds (also in participles), as in a traditional fox hunt needing hounds for hunting (active meaning) and foxes for hunting (passive meaning). > Is this really how the middle was used in Greek and Sanskrit? No. The best example is in the use of the middle for fitting out one's own warship - one's life will depend on how well it is done - as opposed to the active for fitting it out for someone else. > Furthermore, Greek verbs in the present and imperfect of the middle voice are identical to the same tenses of the passive voice - did Greek really distinguish middle from passive? Yes, though there are a good many instances where the middle was used when one would expect the passive. A noteworthy feature is that many Greek verbs have an active in the present, but regularly use the middle in the perfect or future. I believe the reasons are different. In Classical Sanskrit, the active and the middle have the same meaning, and there is a separate derived stem for the passive. Vedic Sanskrit shows some traces of a distinction in meaning, along the Greek lines of 'doing something for oneself'. Richard.