One the Yahoo list Brttonica Chris Gwinn and myself were having the
following conversation:
TP:
> Would anyone on the list care to comment on this, on the subject of
> Celtic words in p-:
> www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/list.html
CG:
Well, I haven't had a chance to look through the whole site yet, but
I
can tell you that there are definitely errors in the first few
entries.
For example, the Irish, Welsh and Breton examples cited under paik-
are
all loans from Latin pecco/peccatus and the ethnic names Gaulish
Pictaui and Pictoni most likely have a native Celtic etymology and
are
not derived from sum substrate word beginning with a p-. The Welsh
and
Breton examples cited under palm- are, once again, Latin loans (from
palma). The same goes for Irish po'g, Welsh poc (from Latin pa:cem),
which are listed under pauk.
I think the author is in desperate need of books that deal with
Welsh,
Breton and Irish etymologies - these are very basic errors..
TP:
> Actually the author is aware of these etymologies. My criteria for
> including them was that they should have a Nordwestblock possible
> cognate.
CG:
Well, I guess don't understand why you would use late Latin loans in
Insular
Celtic langugaes to prove a point about possible Nordwestblock
cognates -
doesn't make any sense to me.
TP:
Why are you so sure they're Latin loans? To an etymologist who isn't
aware of the existence of Nordwestblock words in Germanic, this will
of course seem to be the only option, because of the p- (beside
attempting a derivation from *kW).
>
CG:
Please don't be obtuse, Torsten - the Latin origin of these words on
Insular
Celtic is quite transparent and has been accepted by linguists for
many
decades now.
TP:
That being so, I trust you can tell me the consensus on why these
words are necessarily Latin loans and not from some IE substrate?
TP:
>Wrt *paik- there's Danish 'pjække' 'play truant' (I haven't included
>that yet).
TP:
> Wrt Gaulish Pictaui and Pictoni I would like to know what that
> native etymologi was? From *kW-?
CG:
Yes, that's what I think - it may be related to the Gaulish personal
names
Peciia and Peccio and the Irish persional names Qecia and Qecea,
which seem
to come from an original *kWek-ia:/u: (there are also Gaulish place
names
Pecia:cum and *Peciaua [Pesau]), which Xavier Delamarre translates as
'audacious, strong' (which would be cognate with the rare Old Irish
word
cich 'audacious'). A suffixed form *kWek-t- coulde give us a Gallo-
Brittonic
*pect-/*pext-, which might be cognate with Sanskrit
saktih 'strength' (if it
comes from a dissimilated form, *kekW-t-).
TP:
> Wrt. *palm-, it's of course obvious to propose it to be a loan from
> Latin. But how does Middle Dutch 'palmen' and ON 'fálma' 'seize'
> then enter into the picture.
CG:
I have no idea - perhaps the Dutch word might be the result of a
Latin loan?
TP:
And the ON word be the result of a pre-Grimm shift Latin loan? I
don't think so.
CG:
Who says the words are even related?
TP:
Ernout-Meillet, for one.
TP:
> Wrt. Irish po'g, Welsh poc (from Latin pa:cem), I mention the
> traditional derivation from Latin; where's the basic error in that?
CG:
It is not simply a 'traditional' derivations - it is the only
derivation
possible!
TP:
Why?
CG:
Think about it a little harder.
TP:
Please answer the following questions:
1) Were other languages spoken on the British Isles prior to the
arrival of the Celts?
2) If yes to 1), might some of these languages have been IE?
3) If yes to 2), might some of these languages have preserved
PIE *p- ?
TP:
And cf. Greek pélma 'sole'.
And then suddenly I'm no longer a member of Brittonica, of which
Chris is the moderator. I'm sure there must have been some mistake;
the alternative scenario, that I was thrown out of a list without
explanation by a moderator who ran out of arguments and feared
others on the list might catch on to the idea of a Nordwestblock
substrate in the British Isles I won't even contemplate.
Do you have any comments, Chris?
Torsten