Hello All,
I tried to split the Romanian - Albanian Common Words in several
categories:
ANCIENT - common in both languages at least before 200 BC
OLD - common in both languages at least before 600 BC
NEW - after 600 BC
X - cannot indicate something
I qualified some of them as :
OLD - X (seems old but enough arguments)
OLD or NEW (could be either OLD or NEW)
I didn't count 'Old - X' or 'Old or New' or X
I obtained:
-------------------------------------------
ANCIENT- 16 -> 30% - present in both languages at least before 200BC)
OLD - 29 -> 54.7% - present in both languages at least before600BC)
--------------------------------------------
TOTAL OLD : 85% (present in both languages at least before 600BC)
-------------------------------------------
NEW - 8 -> 15% - could be new words (but their etymology still
not very clear)
-------------------------------------------
TOTAL : 53 Words
Conclusions:
1. This situation shows that Romanian -
Albanian "contacts" "ended" "at least" before 600BC
2. A genetic linked between the Romanian Substratum (see the
30% "ancient" words but also the toatl of "85%" of "Old" words) and
the Proto-Albanian is "very probable"
Here is my classification:
Rosetti 1. Rom abur - Alb avull -> Ancient
----------------------------------------------
a) Rhotacism in Romanian word as in Latin Loans. No Slavic Loans in
Romanian shows the rothacism.
Due to this : present in Romanian at least before 500 BC.
b) if the PIE root is n.bhlo- (Hamp), that is very probable, so if
b is the original sound here, the word should be present in Pre-
Romanian much much
earlier (due to time needed for b > v passage in Albanian) .
Due to this : present in Romanian before Roman Times , at least
before 100 BC.
Rosetti 2. Rom argea - Alb ragal -> Old
----------------------------------------------
Rom. argea - Alb. (G.) ragal
Attested Maced. argella
a) In Romanian final -lla > -a affects only Latin Words.
Ex: Lat. stella > Rom. stea
There is no Slavic Loans in Romanians showing this rule
Due to this : present in Romanian at least before 600 BC.
Rosetti 3. Rom baci - Alb bac -> New
----------------------------------------------
a) Due to irregular Rom. c^ Alb c /ts/ is considered a New loan in
Romanian.
Note:
However if Rom/Alb 'baci' is a contraction form of rom. 'bãditsa'
dim of Rom. 'bade':
PAlb *baditsa > Rom. badtsja > Rom. bac^i
PAlb *baditsa > *badtha > *batsa
*dthj/*dtj gives c/c^ in Albanian
Rosetti 4. Rom balaur - Alb bollë -> Ancient
----------------------------------------------------
Rom. a for Alb. o could arrived only from a long a:
PAlb a: > PAlb o before Roman Times.
Due to this : at least before 0 BC.
Rosetti 5. Rom balegã - Alb balgë/bajgë -> X
------------------------------------------------
a) Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism. Albanian
lg/jg is a recent transformation.
b) The missing of rhotacism in Romanian is not a reason not to
have an old word in Romanian : there was 2 kind of 'l'
in proto-albanian as in Latin l and ll (only *l shows the rhotacism
in Romanian)
See: Rom. mal - Alb mal - attested in Latin as : Dacia Malvensis .
See also rom. cac^ula <-> Alb casulã => showing c^ > s with no
rothacism
(c^ > c very old -> Before Roman Times (> later s) )
Rosetti 6. Rom baltã - Alb baltë -> X
------------------------------------------------
a) Considered having a Slavic origins by the Slavic adepts.
However his presence in Italian Dialects (Rosetti) is an indication
that shows the presence of this word before Slavs arrival in Balkans.
b) If a Slavic Loan, missing of Slavic Methatesis shows that this
word enter in Romanian and Albanian at least before 800 BC
Rosetti 7. Rom bardzã > barzã - Alb bardhë -> Ancient
------------------------------------------------
a) PAlb dz > PAlb. dh before(/at the beginning) Roman Times -> At
least before 200 BC.
Rosetti 8. bascã -> Alb. bashkë -> Old
------------------------------------------------
a) PAlb s > Alb sh before 600-700 BC (apud Orel : before sec. VI)
Rosetti 9. bâlc -> Alb. pellg -> Grk. pellagos -> Old - X
------------------------------------------------
a) The Greek origin : pellagos shows that the words is very ancient :
at least from Latin times.
Rosetti 10. bâr -> Alb. berr -> X
------------------------------------------------
a) Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
Note: Timeframe of Romanian er > âr should be a hint to determined
how old it is but I cannot located it in time.
Rosetti 11. Rom. brad -> Alb. bredh -> Ancient
------------------------------------------------
a) Romanian sg. form brad is reduced from an older PAlb *bradza :
this indicates Rom dz - Alb dh.
PAlb dz > PAlb. dh before(/at the beginning) of Roman Times -> At
least before 200 BC.
Rosetti 12. Rom. brândzâ>brânzâ -> cf. Rom. rânzâ -> Old
------------------------------------------------
Rosetti 13. Rom. brâu -> Alb. brez -> Old - X
------------------------------------------------
PAlb *breuna or *brenu
A possible PAlb eu > Alb e
Rosetti 13. Rom. buc -> Alb. byk -> Old
------------------------------------------------
a) Alb y indicates an older u:
PAlb u: > PAlb y affects the Latin Loans that shows Lat u: > Alb
y
The Romanian word was present in Romanian before PAlb u: > PAlb y
started (even via *iu or via *ui)
Due to this : at least before 500 BC
Rosetti 14. Rom. bucurie -> Alb. bukurë -> Old - X
------------------------------------------------
a) Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
However the number of derived forms in both languages shows an
older presence in both languages.
Rosetti 15. Rom. bunget -> Alb. bunk -> X
------------------------------------------------
a) Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
Rosetti 16. Rom. budzã > buzã -> Alb. buzë -> Old
------------------------------------------------
a) Alb z - Rom. dz (attention dz is attested in Romanian budza in sec-
XVI that is not - at all the case with any Slavic loan in Romanian :
Sl. zidU > Rom zid (with z not with dz)
Alb z - Rom z is regular if from PAlb *dy > PAlb dz, PRom dz that
is the case with 'buza' < PAlb *budja (Orel)
Lat di-V > PAlb dz -> Lat. *spudia > Alb shpuzë.
Lat di > PRom dz -> Lat. *spudia > Rom. spuzã.
So at least before Slavic Loans in Romanian. At least before 600 BC.
Rosetti 17. Rom. caciula -> Alb. kësullë -> Ancient
------------------------------------------------
a) Rom. c^ > Alb s -> PAlb c^ > PAlb c -> Before Roman Times (
later > PAlb s)
At Least before 200 BC.
Note : The c^ > s (and its related timeframe) in a word showing also
he missing of rhotacism
is a good indication on the presence of l and ll in Proto-
Albanian.
So this word shows an original ll sound and an explanation to
the question: why no rhotacism in Romanian.
Rosetti 18. Rom. gãlbeadzã > gãlbeazã -> Alb. këlbazë -> Old
------------------------------------------------
a) Romanian word is attested as gãlbeadzã -> so older than the Slavic
loans in Romanian.
b) Alb. suffix -zë is from PAlb -dya so PAlb *dy > PAlb dz, PRom dz
is regular.
So at least common before Slavic Loans in Romanian. At least before
600 BC.
Note also Rom. e - for Alb. a -> indicating a much older
timeframe that could be fixed.
Rosetti 19. Rom. cãpushã > Alb. këpushë -> Old or New
------------------------------------------------
Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
The Rom. sh - Alb sh doesn't indicate for sure a new loan because:
a) we can have a Ruki Rule in Albanian before u -> s>sh based on
which: us>ush before Roman Times
b) also the original form could be : capusja with a regular PAlb sj >
Rom. sh > Alb. sh
Rosetti 19. Rom. cãtun > Alb. katund -> X
------------------------------------------------
Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
Rosetti 20. Rom. ceafã > Alb. qafë -> Old
------------------------------------------------
Lat. ci > Alb q is regular. There is no Slavic loan in Albanian
showing this phonetism.
So PAlb ky > PAlb q during Roman Times. Lat. caelum > Alb. qjell >
Rom cer
At least common before 500 BC.
Rosetti 21. Rom. cioarã > Alb. sorrë -> Ancient
------------------------------------------------
PAlb c^ > PAlb c (later s) -> before Latin Times
At least common before 200 BC.
Rosetti 22. Rom. cioc > Alb. c,ok , qok -> Old or New
------------------------------------------------
Even from a possible onomatopeic origin -> the older forms in
Albanian shows : qok for this root.
Rom c^ - Alb q < PAlb ky (see ceafã)
Alb. q > Lat ky Normal treatment in Latin Loans.
At least before 600 BC
Rosetti 23. Rom. ciukã <-> Alb. c,ukë , sukë -> Ancient
------------------------------------------------
The older form sukë is present in any Albanian Dictionary (see:
Dictionar Roman-Albanez : Elena Topciu)
PAlb c^ > PAlb c (later s) -> before Latin Times
At least before 200 BC.
Rosetti 24. Rom ciuf <-> Alb c,ufkë - New
------------------------------------------------
Rosetti 25. Rom ciump <-> Alb thump - Unclear relation between the 2
words - X
------------------------------------------------
Rosetti 26. Rom ciupi <-> Alb c,upi - New
------------------------------------------------
Rosetti 27. Rom ciut <-> Alb shut - Ancient
------------------------------------------------
PAlb c^ > PAlb c -> before Latin Times > later s
At least before 200 BC.
Note : See that c>s ended in this word during PAlb s>sh transition.
Rosetti 28. Rom coacãzã <-> Alb coqë - X
------------------------------------------------
Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
Rosetti 29. Rom. copil - Alb kopil - Arom. kok'ila - Old
------------------------------------------------
Arum k'i < CommonRom pi shows a word present in PRom before the
first Slavic loans
At least before 600 BC
Rosettti 30. Rom curpen - Alb. kulpër - Old
------------------------------------------------
The Albanian Tosk Rothacism indicates a word older than the first
Slavic Loans in Albanian.
At least before 600 BC
Rosettti 31. Rom cursã - Alb. kurthë - Ancient
------------------------------------------------
Rom. s - Alb. th < PAlb ts -> Showing the ts <-> s alternance in PAlb.
PAlb ts > Palb th -> before(/at the beginning) of Roman Times
At least before 200 BC.
Rosettti 32. Rom droaie - Alb. droe - X
------------------------------------------------
Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
Rosettti 33. Rom druete - Alb. dru - Old
------------------------------------------------
Alb dru < PAlb *druwa (For the PAlb *druwa see Alb dru cognates with
Slavic drov&)
The Romanian -uwe- pronunciation -> indicates the trace of *w(e)
before its retraction.
For this reason should be located at least in Roman Times. Before 600
BC.
Rosettti 34. Rom fãrâmã - Alb. thërimmë - X
------------------------------------------------
Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism. (Alb f > th is
recent).
Need to investigate further the timeframe of: Rom. ãr - Alb. ër
Rosettti 35. Rom fluier - Alb. fyell - Old
------------------------------------------------
The rothacism in Romanian word indicates that this words was common
at least before 600BC
(In Romanian, the rothacism affects only the Latin Loans but not the
Slavic Loans)
Rosettti 36. Rom gard - Alb. gardh - X
------------------------------------------------
Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
Notes:
1. If this is a Loan from Slavic this happens before Slavic
Methathesis -> before 800BC
2. Presence of Albanian dh indicating also an old presence in
Albanian and not a Slavic Loan (Rosetti)
Rosettti 37. Rom gata - Alb. gat - X
------------------------------------------------
Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
Rosettti 38. Rom ghimpe - Alb. gjemp - Old
------------------------------------------------
Albanians form with *gl indicates a PAlb *glempa/ *glampa
PAlb *gl > Rom ghi , Alb gj is an older treatement both for Romanian
as for Albanian
This treatment is not present in Slavic loans both in Romanian and
in Albanian before 600BC
Rosettti 39. Rom ghionoaie - Alb. gjon - New
------------------------------------------------
Difficult to say until I will find the right etymology of this word.
Until then I consider it as New.
Rosettti 40. Rom ghiuj - Alb. gjysh - Old
------------------------------------------------
If Alb. gjysh is from a PAlb su:sha cognates with Sk. s'us'a
PAlb us > PAlb ush (before Latin Times - kind a Ruki Rule in
Albanian -> Orel)
PAlb gj > PAlb *su before Latin Times
Rom u - for Alb y : in Latin Times: common at least before 600 BC
Rom final j for an older sh shows a very old treatement in Romanian.
Rosettti 41. Rom gogã - Alb. gogë - X
------------------------------------------------
Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
Rosettti 42. Rom grapã - Alb. grepë - X
------------------------------------------------
Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
Rosettti 43. Rom gresie - Alb. gërresë - NEW
------------------------------------------------
Rom s - Alb s is an indication thta the word is NEW
Rosettti 44. Rom groapã - Alb. gropë - X
----------------------------------------------------------
Cannot detect any timeframes based on this phonetism.
Rosettti 45. Rom grumadz>grumaz - Alb. gurmaz - Old
----------------------------------------------------------
The presence of dz in Old-Romanian shows that this word preceed the
first Slavic Loan
At Least Common before 600 BC
Rosettti 46. Rom. grunz - Alb. grundë - X
------------------------------------------------
Seems to be linked with Rom. grãunte. But we cannot be sure.
Rosettti 47. Rom. gushã - Alb. gushë - X
--------------------------------------------
Could be from Latin geusiae (not sure).
Rosettti 48. Rom. hamesh - Alb. hamës - NEW
--------------------------------------------
Rom. sh for Alb s is irregular. I consider it NEW but need further
investigations.
Rosettti 49. Rom. g^umãtate > jumãtate - Alb. gjymës - Old
--------------------------------------------
PALb *ju:matja > Alb gjymasë > Alb gjysmë
Same treatement as in Latin Loans: PAlb: ju > Rom. g^u- (later ju-) <-
> Alb gj-
Also PAlb u: > Rom u <-> Alb y -> Before 200 BC
Rosettti 50. Rom. lete - Alb. lehtë - X
--------------------------------------------
Rosettti 51. Rom. leurdã - Alb. hurdhë - X
--------------------------------------------
Rosettti 52. Rom. magurã - Alb. magullë;gamulë - OLD
----------------------------------------------------------
Romanian rothacism. At least common before 600BC.
Rosettti 53. Rom. mal - Alb. mal - OLD
--------------------------------------------
The Romanian meaning 'shore' indicates a semantism closer to Baltic
ones than to Albanian one.
For this reason I consider it 'Old'
Attested in Dacia Maluensis
Rosettti 54. Rom. mare - Alb. i madh - X
--------------------------------------------
The link is not 100% sure.
Rosettti 55. Rom. mãrar - Alb. maraj - X
--------------------------------------------
Need further investigations.
Rosettti 56. Rom. madzãre > - Alb. modhull - ANCIENT
----------------------------------------------------------
1.PAlb a: > Rom a <-> Alb. o Before Roman Times (before 0 BC -> see
Lat a: give always Alb a)
2. Romanian rothacism (before 600 BC)
3. Palb dz > Rom dz <-> Alb. dh (before 200 BC)
Rosettti 57. Rom. mânz > Alb. mëz - OLD
-------------------------------------------
PAlb *mandja
PAlb dj > Rom dz <-> Alb z - in Roman Times before 500 BC
Also:
Rom. ân - Alb. ën
Alb nz > Alb z
Rosettti 58. Rom. mosh > Alb. moshë - NEW
-------------------------------------------
For sure is not new.
But until the etyumology will be clarify I will consider it as NEW.
Rosettti 59. Rom. mugur > Alb. mugull - OLD
---------------------------------------------
The rothacism in Romanian word indicates that this words was common
at least before 600BC
(In Romanian, the rothacism affects only the Latin Loans but not the
Slavic Loans)
Rosettti 60. Rom. murg > Alb. murg - X
---------------------------------------------
Rosettti 61. Rom. mushkoi > Alb. mushk - NEW
---------------------------------------------
NOTE:
However once again we have us > ush that can be very old in Romanian
and Albanian
(before Roman Times)
Rosettti 62. Rom. nãpârcã > Alb. nëpërkë - X
---------------------------------------------
Rosettti 63. Rom. pârãu > Alb. përrua - X
---------------------------------------------
Difficult word.
Rosettti 64. Rom. pupãzã > Alb. pupëz - X
-------------------------------------------
Alb suffic -z is from -dy. Could be linked to the Latin word
Rosettti 65. Rom. rândzã(>rânzã) > Alb. rëndës - OLD
-------------------------------------------
Romanian dz>z indicates that the word was at least common before the
Slavic Loans in Romanian
(before 600 BC)
Rosettti 66. Rom. sarbãd > Alb. tharbëd - ANCIENT
---------------------------------------------
Rom s - Alb th from a PAlb ts -> before 200 BC
Rosettti 67. Rom. scãpãra > Alb. shkrep - OLD
---------------------------------------------
Rom. s Alb sh before 600-700 BC
Rosettti 68. Rom. scrum > Alb. shkrumb - OLD
---------------------------------------------
Rom. s Alb sh before 600-700 BC
Alb m <-> mb shows also an old pattern
Rosettti 69. Rom. sâmbure > Alb. thumbull,sumbull - ANCIENT
---------------------------------------------
Rom s - Alb th from a PAlb ts -> before 200 BC
Also Romanian Rhotacism -> before 600 BC
Rosettti 70. Rom. spândz(>spânz) -> Alb. shpendër - OLD
---------------------------------------------
Rom. s Alb sh before 600-700 BC
Remain to investigate Rom nz <-> ndër (maybe PAlb *spandz(a)-ra)
Rosettti 71. Rom. strepede -> Alb. shtrep - OLD
---------------------------------------------
Rom. s Alb sh before 600-700 BC
Rosettti 72. Rom. strungã -> Alb. shtrungë - OLD
---------------------------------------------
Rom. s Alb sh before 600-700 BC
Rosettti 73. Rom. shopãrla -> Alb. shapi - OLD
---------------------------------------------
An initial si- is the single form that could preserved the initial s-
in the Albanian word.
In this case PAlb *si -> Rom sh- <-> Alb sh-
The semantic distance shows at least 2 OLD words derived from the
same PAlb root.
Rosettti 74. Rom. shtirã -> Alb. shtierrë - X
---------------------------------------------
An ancient Rom. shti from *sti or *sci is regular.
Rosettti 75. Rom. tsap -> Alb. cap, cjap, thjap - X
---------------------------------------------
the Geg form thjap (Tagliavini) shows an older PAlb *c < Alb th
However I will keep this word as X.
Rosettti 76. Rom. tsark -> Alb. thark - ANCIENT
---------------------------------------------
Rom ts for alb th -> before 200 BC
Rosettti 77. Rom. urda -> Alb. urdhë - OLD
---------------------------------------------
Alb. rd > Alb rdh presents in Latin Loans
Rosettti 78. Rom. vatrã/pl.vetre ar. vatrã/var. veatrã -> Alb.
vatër - OLD
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Romanian and Aromanian forms shows traces of an ancient e lost in
Albanian forms.
Rosettti 79. Rom. viedzure(>viezure) -> Alb. vjedhull - ANCIENT
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From PAlb *wedzula
PAlb dz > Rom dz(>z) <-> Alb dh (before 200 BC)
PAlb e > Rom ie <-> Alb je -> Affects only the Latin Loans (before
400 BC)
Romanian Rothacism > Affects only the Latin Loans (before 600 BC)
Rosettti 80. Rom. dzarã(>zarã) -> Alb. dhallë - ANCIENT
--------------------------------------------------------
PAlb *dzala
PAlb dz > Rom dz(>z) <-> Alb dh (before 200 BC)
Romanian Rothacism -> Affects only the Latin Loans (before 600 BC)
Rosettti 81. Rom. zgardã -> Alb. shkardhë - OLD
------------------------------------------------
Rom. s(>z) > Alb sh (before 600-700 BC)
Alb rd > Alb rdh -> presents in Latin Loans
Rom zg > PAlb sk (timeframe still to be detected)
NOT in Rosettti 82. Rom. ratsã -> Alb. rosë - ANCIENT
-------------------------------------------------------
PAlb *ra:tja
PAlb a: > Rom a: <-> Alb o (before 0BC => Latin a: > Alb a)