Re: [tied] Walachians are placed far North the Danube in Nestor (10

If your own libraries don't subscribe to "Bukovyns'kyj
Zhurnal'" (in Ukr.), published by the University of
Chernivtsi, may I recommend that you order the
following issue on inter-library loan: n.3-4 (1995).
Consult my article on pp. 97-119 : "The Romanian
question in the light of the Tale of Bygone Years."
I've already handled your problems in some previous
posts (use the Cybalist search engine) so I don't
intend to continuously repeat myself. Still, a few
points below between the lines.

--- alexandru_mg3 <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:

>
>
> Marius wrote:
> >>
> >> 5. A chronicle by Venerable Nestor (1056 - 1136
> AD)

*****GK: Nestor (ca. 1057-1116) edited and added to
only part of the Kyivan Chronicle. He knew nothing
about the Vlachs/Volokhs.*****

mentions

> >> Walachians fighting against Magyars north of the
> Danube in 6406
> >> (898). See also: Nestor Chronicles
> >>
> (http://www.users.bigpond.com/kyroks/nestor.html).

*****GK: The five "Wallachian glosses" of the TBY were
composed by Abbot Sylvester of the Kyivan Monastery of
St. Michael, Nestor's Continuator and political
confidant of Kyivan ruler Volodymyr Monomakh, in
connection with the latter's planned Danubian campaign
in support of the Byzantine Pretender Leo in
1116.******

>
> I supposed that George missed the paragraph in
> which Nestor talks
> about "Vallachians and Romans" as distinct entities
> so there is no
> confusion between this 2 entities:
>
> Nestor (1056 - 1136 AD) Chronicle:
> "These lands contained numerous tribes such as Rus,
> Chud, Pechera,
> Uhra, Lytva, Lethola, Mordva, Zmyhola, Merya,
> Muroma, Perm, Ves, Yam,
> Kors, Lib. Further North, toward the Viking Sea
> (Baltic Sea) were ,
> Wends, Goths, Lakhs, Prus and Chud. Upon that sea
> sat Vikings and
> further West Japhet's domain extend up to England ,
> then South up to
> Italy, neighboring with Ham's lands. Thus Japhet's
> domain included
> also Northmen, Anglo-Saxons, Galicians, Walachians
> and Romans."

*****GK: George didn't miss anything (:=)). Note that
in your citation the TBY's "Zemlya Voloshskaya" ("The
Wallachian Land") is translated as "Italy". Correctly.
That was the assumption of the Kyivan Chronicle.
"Rome" was mentioned separately, but then so was
"Venice". Unlike Kekaumenos, Sylvester considered the
Wallachians to be descendants of the Roman Imperial
conquerors from Italy. Further details in my
article.*****

>
>
> Other paragraphes shows Walachians far North from
> the Danube
> figthing with Slavs and forcing the Lakhs (Rom.
> 'Leshi') to migrate
> to Visla river and other Slavs to Dnepr river (all
> this before 898
> when Nestor talk about a common Wallachian & Slavic
> fight against
> Hungarians)
>
> Nestor (1056 - 1136 AD) Chronicle:
> "When Walachians invaded those Slavs, they settled
> among them and
> oppressed them.

*****GK: This is Sylvester's account of the Roman
Imperial expansion into the "Danubian" area, in the
period 1rst c. BC-2nd c AD. The time frame is given
by the TBY tale of the Apostle Andrew's "trip to Rome"
in the mid- 1rst c. AD, when the various Slavic ethna
displaced by the "Wallachians" are in place...*****

Then some of the Slavs migrated

> North, settled on
> river Visla and called themselves Lakhs. Later they
> divided up into
> Polans, Lutychs, Mazovshans and Pomoryans. Those who
> settled on river
> Dnipro divided up into Polans (field people),
> Derevlans (wood people,
> because they lived in forests), Drehovychs (between
> rivers Prypyat
> and Dvina), Polochans (after river Polota, which
> flows into Dvina).
> The Slavs who settled on lake Ilmen were called
> Slovens. They built a
> city and called it Novhorod. Others settled on
> rivers Desna, Seym and
> Sula called themselves Siveryans."
>
>
> Another paragraph shows Vallachians (Romanians)
> fithing together
> with the Slavs against Hungarians (around Kiev) in
> 898 BC.
>
> Nestor (1056 - 1136 AD) Chronicle:
> "In 6406 (898) Magyars, who fought against Slavs and
> Walachians,

*****GK: If your text has here "who fought against
Slavs and Wallachians" then it is incorrect. In any
case the mention of "Slavs and Wallachians" found a
few lines further down does not belong to the original
Kyivan Chronicle, but is a development of the
Suzdalian version thereof (later 12th century).*****

> marched past Kyiv on the hill, which nowdays is
> called Hungarian
> Hill."

*****GK: The important point about the information
made available in the TBY, is that in 1116 there were
no Wallachians known to Kyivan Chroniclers North of
the Danube. They were interested in them as potential
allies in the conquest of Bulgaria from the
Byzantines. The "Wallachians" who had conquered the
"Slav Land" earlier had been chased out by the Ugri
(for Sylvester these Ugri were not the Magyars of 898
which he knew as "Black" Ugri, but the "White" Ugri
(Onogurs) of the time of Heraclius in the 7th c., and
later allies of the Bulgars.) The only Wallachians
they thought they could use for their Danubian plans
were those then living in Bulgaria. As far as they
were concerned, there were no Wallachians in the
"Hungarian Land"..****

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