Hello Piotr,
------------------------------------------------
"I can only suspect some kind of analogical influence in Romanian
(assimilation to the <varzã/verze> type). "
------------------------------------------------
1. No. varzã/verze is like fatã/fete;masã/mese;panã/pene;mãr/mere :
with no original 'a' inside only an original E.
please see
http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=varza&source=
Lat. vir(i)dia > *verdza > veardzã > sg. varzã
> pl. verze
"Is *veatrã attested anywhere in the dialects?"
------------------------------------------------
No. As I searched until now in all Romanian Dialects (Aromanian
Megleno-Romanian ) is 'vatrã' never 'veatrã' (in contrary we have
Rom. 'fatã' Mr. 'featã'). Also no *veatrã is attested inside Romanian
(I'm not 100% sure because there aren't very much reference to vatrã
in the books that I have but I'm almost sure viewing the dialects).
So 'vatrã' is always 'vatrã'.
However the Rom. plural is 'vetre'.
My conclusion regarding the facts above is that the phonetism
of 'vatrã'/'vetre' is not linked (more precisely I think that: it was
finished before) with the diphtongation 'ea>e' that happened in
Romanian during first wave of Slavic Loans.
So the phonetism of 'vatra/vetre' is like in the examples that
show 'e>ea'in the root (same model) but is not linked to these ones.
pl. 'vetre' should be older than e>ea in Romanian and should
reflect a older conjuctural PRom *ea or *ae in the root :
*weatra / *waetra
We have 'va'/'ve' in the Romanian forms and 'va~vo in the
Albanians ones.
Of course you can also consider Rom. 've' in 'vetre' as a kind of
a-e -> e-e. I will check this path in the evening too.
But why to have a-e -> e-e in case of 'vatra' and not to have it
in case of 'raTa/raTe' that should be as old as 'vatra' and where we
are sure that we have an PAlb *a: too ?
I think that *weatra or *waetra as proto-forms fit well the
Romanian forms 'vatra'/vetre'.
Also I cannot understand well why you refuse the idea (I mean
here: what arguments you have in order to refuse this idea) to have
something in addition to a single PAlb *a: in the PAlb root:
something like *wea: *wa:e that should generate with no problem the
dialectal variance in Albanian (by loosing a single length in one
vowel)
*wea or *wae > Tosk *wea/*wae>va
versus *wea:/*wa:e > Gheg: weo/woe>vo.
(especially when we know that the passage of 'e:' to 'o' should
happened based on an intermediary 'oe' or 'eo' form and the attested
Gheg form (Buzuku) for 'egg' is OldAlb voe > Alb vo)
This idea will well explain the Romanian forms either based on a
common Romanian-Tosk form *waetra or *weatra and is not an obstacle
to explain also how Latin 'orbus' etc.. was loaned and adapted (maybe
via the Gheg dialect but this assumption is not necessary).
Only the Best,
marius
--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
wrote:
> On 04-11-23 03:47, alexandru_mg3 wrote:
>
> > sg.'mãr' 'apple'/pl. 'mere' < Lat. variant 'me:lum'
> > (see 'me:lum' at Rosetti,Densusianu) and not 'ma:lum' because
> > accented Lat. a:/a always gives 'a' in Romanian but never 'ã')
> >
> > Note: I will come back with this second example in another
message
> > because based on Lat. ma:lum you establish once (Lat. a: > PAlb
o
> > see Alb. mollë and implicitly the timeframe of Alb a: > o ) that
is
> > not true in my opinion because based on Rom. 'mãr' the
form 'me:lum'
> > and not 'ma:lum' circulated in Balkan Romance.
>
> No big deal. I suggested that <mollë> could be an _old_ borrowing
from
> Latin (not a mainstream late Balkan Latin one), but *mah2lo- is PIE
> anyway, so it may be inherited in Albanian, or it may be a
borrowing
> from Doric Greek.
>
> > ---------------
> > Rom. raTa /ratsa/ 'duck' - pl. raTe /ratse/ -> Alb. rosë 'id'
> >
> > doesn't show any alternance a/e in the root between sg. and pl.
forms
> > in Romanian as 'vatra'(pl. vetre) shows.
>
> > And we have an original PAlb *a: in Rom 'raTa' viewing Alb. o
> > (in 'rosë')
> >
> > So for sure that 'vatra' should have something different in its
> > original root than a simple PAlb. *a:
>
> Romanian /a/ for Proto-Albanian *a: is regular, so it's <raTe> that
> shows the expected development. I'm not sure how to explain
> <vatrã/vetre>, which looks as if the preform had been *vetr-a/e,
but
> this doesn't match the Albanian word, no matter how you etymologise
it.
> I can only suspect some kind of analogical influence in Romanian
> (assimilation to the <varzã/verze> type). Is *veatrã attested
anywhere
> in the dialects?
>
> Piotr