Re: Alb. "vatër" ( it was (Re: [tied] Re: Albanian valle )

On 04-11-23 03:47, alexandru_mg3 wrote:

> I'm sorry to say but an early *o- not of ANY origin (because we
> don't have Albanian Inherited words as Examples with exception of the
> supposed 'vatra') but of Greek or Latin origin became Alb vo~va.

<vatër> is a very convincing example, since the word has many external
cognates and a clear IE etymology. The fact that you prefer an ad hoc
etymology of your own, separating <vatër> from its generally recognised
cognates, is your problem, not mine.

> An EXTERNAL sound (like 'o' in this case ) of one language (like
> Latin or Greek) cannot be taken as it is, to determine based on it an
> INTERNAL rule in another language.

Quite the opposite. Loanwords are often used as evidence for such
thingds. A "naturalised" loanword is not exempt from the same changes
that affect native words. For example, the Great Vowel Shift in English
affected both "good old Anglo-Saxon words" and French loanwords in
exactly the same way, cf. <name> (native) and <sane> (borrowed).

> Is like to say that if the output of a Dacian ts /c/ is the
> Latin 'ss' (based on some inscriptions) from here we have in Latin
> the Rule: ts > ss.

But of course we have such a rule in Latin!

> Or to take the Romanian ã /&/ and viewing that it gives sometimes
> in Bulgarian 'o' to make the Bulgarian rule: ã>o
>
> Any vocalism should be explained first only by the internal rules
> of that language. The loans participate to indicate some hints and to
> validate the loans but not to establish the rule.
>
> So the argument that the 'o' of some external language(s)
> gives 'va'~'vo' in Albanian in a historical period of time is a
> valid one but is not sufficient to say that : *o- > va-~vo- in Alb.

But <vatër> confirms the rule and no native Albanian word known to me
contradicts it, so what's your grudge?

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> derives from PIE *h2ah1- in
>
>>*h2ah1-tr-; the a-colouring is from the root-initial *h2, and the
>
> length
>
>>from the root-final *h1.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The single path to follow is to arrive to make an internal
> derivation in that Language.
> If you propose h2ah1 you have to indicates what are the outputs of
> h2ah1 in PAlb and how these outputs gives OldAlb *vae~voe and next
> Albanian va~vo.
>
> A single supposed root for this *h2ah1 is not sufficient.

The output of *h2ah1- (+ consonant) in pre-Alb. is of course *a: (after
the loss of the laryngeals), which is regularly rounded to *o > Common
Albanian *wo, with a prothetic *w also found in loans from Latin, and
with the regular unrounding of the vowel in some dialects. There's no
"vae~voe" anywhere in this derivation.

Piotr