[tied] Re: Gold in PIE

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
wrote:

> On 04-11-09 18:35, whetex_lewx wrote:
>
> > There is ablaut gold - gyldan in English.
> >
> > d <--- t is PIE suffixe.
>
> There's no ablaut here, just Old English UMLAUT. PGmc. *gulþa-

gives OE

No, no, i had in my mind o <-> y, i know about t --> d :)

> gold, and the weak verb *gulþ-j-an yields OE gyldan > Mod.E gild.

Both

> are nil-grade derivatives (< pre-Gmc. *g^Hl.to-). ABLAUT is the

relation

> between *g^Hl.to- and its Baltic and Slavic counterparts, which

derive

> from pre-BS *g^Helto- and *g^Holto-, respectively. They look like
> independent derivatives of *g^Hel-, but their structural

similarity

> (despite the ablaut differences) is puzzling, as is their

geographical

> distribution (N/E Europe). If they are areal loan-translations

meaning

> 'yellow metal', why does BSl. have non-Satemised *gelta-/*gilta- <
> *gH(e)l-to- for 'yellow' (and *gilna: < *gHl.-nah2 in bird-names),

but

> reflexes of *g^H in words for 'green'?

I don't know, maybe IE reconstruction is not so right. Maybe there
were different reflexes, after all, green and yellow have some
differences, i guess Indo-Europeans weren't douthomics (people who
don't know differences between colours)...

about gyldan and etc... Lithuanian has some vowel mutations in
different tences, so maybe it is related in Old English too.

for ex.:
gelsta (present tence)--> ge:^lo: (past tence) (from ge:la:) (to
become yellow more and more)
perka (pr.t.) --> pirko (p.t.) (purchase)
ka:~ria --> ko:re:^ (to gibbet)
and etc...

>
> Given the historical instability of colour terminology, it's

likely that

> *g^He/ol-to- is simply older than the secondary differentiation of
> *gHel- : *g^Hel- in PBS, so that at the time when the 'yellow

metal'

> term was diffusing across the North European Plain the adjective

meaning

> 'yellow' (or rather 'yellow/green') was *g^Hl.-tó- (with a non-

Satem

> variant, *gHl.-tó-) everywhere. In pre-Gmc., it was substantivised

by

> means of accent retraction, but in PBS dialects a full vowel was

infixed

> in the root of the derived noun. _Later_, the non-Satemised

variant of

> the root came to be associated exclusively with the

meaning 'yellow' in

> BS, but the 'gold' word was already living an independent life.

Yes, but it's not big problam, geltonas was isolated, but what about
auksas -X --> s^
ex --> is^, iz

>
> Piotr