Re: Re[4]: [tied] aldric, luis, aldrin = etymology?

Brian M. Scott wrote:

> One would have to see the original context: <Sigismundo>,
> for instance, may simply be the dative or ablative of an
> implied <Sigismunus>.

If so, then this dative or ablative form was becomming a popular
name; I remember about a lot of "Sigismund"-s in the late medieval time.

>> Between "Hermanaricus and Vetericus are 4 rulers which do
>> not have in tehir name the component "ricus" :
>> Hermanaricus, Gesimundus, Hunimundus rex, Thorismud,
>> Berimud, Vetericus
>
> So?

A simple comparation:-)

> Again, these are names, not descriptions. One of the
> basic principles of Germanic name-giving, already evident at
> this early date, is inheritance of name themes.

this early date? I will rather say "for a late date" here comparative with
the first kings:
Hulmul, Augis, Amal, Hisarna, etc

> Thus, the
> children of an Ermanareiks are likely to have names in
> <Ermana-> or (if male) <-reiks>. The literal meaning of the
> names was already secondary.

So Jordanes "latinised" the name of the Goths here or how? There is no
"Ermanareiks" but of course, Ermanaricus

>
> LVIII. Antequam ergo de Audefledam subolem haberet,
> naturales ex concubina, quas genuisset adhuc in Moesia,
> filias, unam nomine Thiudigoto et aliam Ostrogotho. quas mox
> in Italiam venit, regibus vicinis in coniugio copulavit, id
> est unam Alarico Vesegotharum et aliam Sigismundo
> Burgundzonorum.
>
> <Co:pula:re> takes the dative: <Alarico> and <Sigismundo>
> are simply datives of <Alaricus> and <Sigismundus>,
> respectively. I'm not going to dig through to check the
> other examples, but I suspect that these <-o> names are all
> either feminine n-stems, like <Thiudigoto>, or inflected
> Latinized masculine names in <-us>.
>
> In short, Alex is probably chasing a mirage.

Or you don't got exactly what I meant. Even if Alaric in this passage is in
dative "given to Alaric of the Visigoths and to Sigismund of the Burgunds"
that doesnt change anything at the initial thought of me. Th. Mommsen was
not exactly one who do not understand Latin, thus why using names in Dativ
for that genealogy? BTW, which should be the last Gothic names which have
been recorded at all? Are any of them wchich have been kept as they have
been in Toledo?

>
>> Interesting appears a reduction of "nd" if one can
>> consider that the names of Berimud, Thorismud are the same
>> compositions as in the names of Gesimundus, Hunimundus,
>> Tharasmundo
>
> This is by no means certain. There were two deuterothemes,
> one akin to Gothic <mo:ths> 'Mut, Zorn', the other to Gothic
> *<mund-> 'Hand, Schutz'. They started to be conflated quite
> early, but it's possible that in Jordanes they're still
> accurately distinguished.

I do not affirmed either the reduction is certain.

>
>> About names which ends in "-a", one find them even between
>> the first kings (Hisarna) but later too (Amalaberga).
>
> <Amalaberga> is a Latinized feminine name; the Gothic
> original would have had <-bergo>.

Which will speak against a Latin inflexion or Dative/Ablative of what you
said until now:-)

>
>> Question: how usual was in IE-culture to give names to men
>> which ends in "-a"?
>
> Gothic masculine n-stems have nominatives in /-a/; feminine
> <-o:n>-stems have nominatives in /-o:/. Thus, you get
> Gothic masculine names in <-a> and feminine names in <-o>,
> if the final stems are weak; I believe that this is also
> true in Burgundian and in East Germanic generally.
>
> Brian

If we keep this path, having before 3 century AC names in /-a/ from /-an/
will mean the lost of the final consonants has been an early and wide
phoenomenon for several languages and not only specific of a certain
Romance in a late period of the IR.


Alex