Re: [tied] Slavic "lada"

Vadim:

> No haplology can exist here, because such a process develops only when

there

> exists two similar syllables side by side, and this is not the case. And

if

> no haplology, then what is the reason for the shortening? If it were a

word

> used extremely frequently, this could cause the shortening by itself, but
> this is not the case either, I think.

I am sorry for this terminological inaccuracy of mine, but in Czech,
haplology ("haplologie") means both simple shortening (e.g. Akademicky'
slovni'k cizich slov) due to a quick pronunciation and what you defined it
above. Perhaps, there is a different term for simple shortening in English.

> >Another reconstructions starts with *ladU < *la:-dho- from the pronominal
> >element *la and the reduced form of the IE root *dhe: "to lay (down),

put,

> >etc." (cf. Czech <bez ladu a skladu> "in a total disarray, disorder".

> And what about a possibility to be connected with <sklad> itself?
> sklad < *sU-kladU, cf. R. klast' "to put, to lay (down)" < *klasti <
> *kladti. In present R. klast' is conjugated as kladu, kladëš, kladët etc.,
> but the
> future tense is: po-lož-u etc. Here po- is a prefix, and the root is lož-

<

> *log-. Cf. po-laga-t' "to consider, to think", with the long grade of the
> root vowel, and the different thematic vowel; osnovo-polagat' "to lay the
> foundation". More examples: s-klad-yva-ju "I am putting together" (with

the

> same prefix as in <sklad>, and a frequentative suffix), fut. s-lož-u. It

is

> not clear if the contemporary suppletive roots klad- and log-/lag- can
> historically represent the same root, but if so, <lad> could be connected
> with them as well. And, of course, we must remember that historically
> log-/lag- is nothing but a causative/transitive from ležat' "to lie, to be
> situated"...

Well, yes, I have also considered that possibility (with similar words in
Czech). PS *klasti (<*klad-ti) can be connected to Lith. klo~das "layer",
klóti "to lay over, to spread" and Goth. hla?an, German laden "load" (OE
hladan) < the first part being IE *kla:-
The future tense, however, is from a different root, it is just a different
ablaut of the IE root *legh-.
So, now, we can compare the two roots *kla:- and *legh-/*logh- and not see
any apparent similarity, but:

(perhaps, some external - Nostratic? - parallels could help us)
We may hypothesize and speculate about the -lV- element and ask if PS *ladU
(IE *la:-?), IE *kla:- (**-la:-???) and IE *legh- (**lV-gh-?) have something
in common and what, if so.

> > Machek
> >thinks Rus./Ukr. <lado> is secondary, being derived from f. <lada>, as

he,

> >moreover, claims it is an old Black-sea, Asia Minor loan. But he does not
> >explain where it is from, which non-IE languages it is present in, that

is

> a
> >pity...what is your opinion, Vadim?
>
>
> Without knowing what Machek says more deeply, it is difficult to give any
> conclusion... I can only tell some very common thoughts on the subject. If
> the similarity of Slav. <lada> and some words of other languages were
> strict, this could be a proof of borrowing (either into Slavic or from it)
> by itself. But really, it is not the case, and the words of other

languages

> that are presumably connected have great differences bouth in phonetics

and

> meaning (as it is with Gr. Leto and Lat. Latona, for example). Therefore,

to

> consider Slav.<lada> a loan, we have not only to find out a hypothetical
> source, but also to understand why it had been borrowed, and why such

That something does not exist cannot be claimed just because it has has not
been found yet :-) But, yes - why should any language adopt that word?

> semantical and phonetical shifts had place. For example, borrowing from

Leto

> and Latona is so disprooved, because if Slaves borrowed the name of a
> goddess, it hardly could develop the meaning present in Slavic languages.

The great changes in both phonetics and semantics would be due to different
donor-languages (that mediated the exchange) and different times of the
borrowing.

By the way, what are the etymologies of the following Goddeses?

Gr. Léda
Gr. Letó
Lat. Latóna

&

Etr. Voltumnus

(Machek speculated about their common root *veldh- "to rule", but I think,
if he wanted to connect it to Cz vla'dnout, Goth. waldan etc., the
projection would be IE *waldh-, which is sometimes considered relative to IE
*wal- "to be strong, healthy")