Re: [tied] Re: IE right & 10

> Yes. I do think that this is part of a cultural and economic exchange
> from the Near and Middle East outwards, but 'superiority'? And of the

Well, I should not write superior, perhaps "advanced" might be better,
although I am not sure wether this would be possible, either.

> Semitic people specifically? No. I think that it's clear that Anatolia
> in general, whether it be from Semites, Hattians, Hurrians or what
> have you, were the major influence on northern peoples. However, maybe
> I'm mad but I get the overall impression that the Eastern Mediterranean
> was the source of the neolithic economy that would seed the later
> 'civilisations'.

No, I do not think you are mad, it sounds logical, I think. (But I may be
mad, too, God save me!)

> Waterways would be an excellent way to haul goods rather than by land
> and, while I'm no sea captain, I'd imagine you can get from Palestine to
> the north coast of the Black Sea without too much trouble. It would just
> take time, but not as much time as dragging the goods across desert,
> forest and tundra :)

OK, that is clear. So, they might have been among the dominant trading
nations. If another nation of that region had been so influential, why would
IE's and other groups not have borrowed the number from Hattians or Hurrians
or whoever? There must have been something special, indeed - something
divine, perhaps :)

> Perhaps the reason for the adoption of the _Semitic_ word for 'seven'
> per se is a) because the Semites would have been well connected to the
> Eastern Mediterranean at the time and b) because they might be the source
> of the numerological cult that perhaps stems from something agricultural.
> (I'm thinking a lot lately about how old the concept of the calendar is
> and whether it has bearing on this symbol of seven.)

Well, if it had been only a), the peoples would have had to adopt more than
one numeral, therefore there must have been some "b)", too, as you wrote,
now we have to find out what it was or could be.

> > 1. As for FP:
> > a. Blazek reconstructs *s'eN'c'emä "7" and considers it a borrowing
> > from a Baltic dialectal form (similar to OLith se~kmas "7th")
>
> Yes, well I can accept that the Uralic word for 'seven' was something
> quite different from this and that however one might reconstruct this
> numeral, it is a borrowing in post-IE times from many IE languages
> depending on the branch you're talking about. I can't comment much
> about which IE languages Uralic languages have borrowed from though. It's
> nothing something I've looked into as deeply as you have.
>
>
> > As for its phonetics, could you imagine a direct Ugric TäptE < Semitic
> > *sab`atum? Could this be possible geographically???
>
> No. Semitic was supposed to have been spoken in Palestine/Syria. IE
> and perhaps Tyrrhenian languages would be the only possible intermediaries

But, taking into account, they could have used vessels (your idea) to trade
the North...? I admit this is less probable.

> between Ugric and Semitic, so I'd gather that it's most probable that
> Ugric loaned the numeral from an IE language. However, don't forget that
> Etruscan also borrowed the numeral (note /sempH/). I'd imagine that the
> preceding Proto-Tyrrhenian word would have been *sempa or *sepa at around
> 3000-2500 BCE and borrowed directly from a Semitic language.

If I understand it well, PT *sepa < Ak form sebe or seba, right?

{Hm, your reconstruction reminds me of other Afro-Asiatic expressions for
the numeral (not that I necessarily claim Proto-Tyrrhenian adopted "7" from
any of them, it is simply improbable):
Egyptian (vocalized) *safH (cf. also MBa transcription sap-Ha), original
form *sab?- ("?" should be vertically inverted :)). Semitic and Egyptian
forms are often compared to Somali sa?ab "palm of hand with fingers" (<
*sab?-), Beja sibta "wrist" and, typologically, e.g. Zulu isikhombisa "7" &
"forefinger" or Malay tud'uh "7" < Austronesian *tuZuq"forefinger",
originally "to point". Some people reconstruct a common expression *[c]ab-,
which meant "forefinger" in some dialects and "middle finger" in other
dialects > "3" in many dialects :D. This is as for the (possible) etymology
of Semitic "7", which, of course, has nothing do with its divine character
in Semitic languages, as it seems to be inherited in the super-stock ;).}