Re: [tied] Re: IE right & 10

From: enlil@...
Message: 34110
Date: 2004-09-11

>>It is also known that the numbers 1 to 6 are related in most Uralic
>>languages, but numbers above 7 are not, so base 10 counting seems to
>>have evolved later.

Peter:
> Well, the numeral 7 seems to be borrowed from various IE branches
> (Baltic, Tocharian, Indo-Iranian), we will agree.

I think that there is a danger in this assumption that the lack of
reconstructable words above "six" show that Uralic speakers used a
six-based number system. I think that there is a reason for why we
don't find things above "six". The reason is Neolithic world-view.

We also don't know what IE had before it adopted *septm from a Semitic
tongue. I don't think it's because IE had a non-decimal system either.
It's because "six" and "seven" had numerological significance even in
prehistory. Thus, the ubiquitous adoption of "seven", particularly from a
Middle-Eastern tongue in many unrelated European and West Asian languages,
suggests to me that "seven" was something divine, a symbol perhaps of the
goddess. We in fact later see the use of the numeral as a symbol in
connection with the Bible (where "seven" represents completion, divinity,
associated with God, etc as with the "seven days of creation" in
opposition to the "six(-six-six)" of Satan) and also we hear of the Seven
Sisters of the Pleiades and seven days of the week. The number of days
in the year is 365 which when divided by 52 (a multiple of the prime 13),
gives another prime, 7.

I'm thinking that while I doubt that Uralic and IE were geographically
very close to each other before 4000 BCE, it's not impossible for Near
and Middle Eastern influences to spread their way into Uralic territory,
causing the replacement of any former word for "seven", in favour of
something much more religiously significant.


> Therefore, it can be assumed that there was a firmly established
> system of 1-5 and 10 in Uralic languages.

If my two cents are worth anything, I think that the decimal system is
the most ancient system underlying both IE and Uralic number system...
and yes I think that Proto-Steppe speaking peoples had words up to "ten"
even though they were hunter-gatherers.


= gLeN