On Tue, 20 Jul 2004
enlil@... wrote:
>
> However, in MIE, I write *t: for later *d simply because I feel that
> at this stage, these stops were completely voiceless but still contrasted
> somehow with voiceless plain *t and voiced *d (> *dH).
>
> This shouldn't be a terrible controversy but as usual Jens wants to
> make a crater out of a gopher hole.
>
>
> Jens:
> > What we can say about *pedós in this respect is that the /e/ is short
> > and followed by a single consonant plus a vowel. Within the limited
> > knowledge at our disposal that makes the first syllable open; otherwise
> > the distinction has no meaning that I can see.
>
> I don't think our knowledge is so limited.
>
> "Laryngeals and Vedic metre"
> Jost Gippert (Universität Frankfurt)
> http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/jg/pdf/jg1996k.pdf
No, some can limit it even further. Gippert's paper spells out the
occasional position-forming effect of *laryngeals* in the Vedic metre, an
old observation made by Kurylowicz in the twenties and revived by
Schindler in 1993 at the Copenhagen conference staged by myself. It came
as a surprise to the participants of a podium discussion on the phonetics
of laryngeals in which Michael Job chaired over Gippert, Beekes and me. I
endorsed the information supplied and integrated it into the printed
version of my paper, and many others have subsequently done the same. Now,
if this is of any importance to you, it must be of some interest also that
it is exclusively about laryngeals, while there is no position-forming
effect to be had from the plain mediae. Thus, if you leave it up to the
metrical indications supplied by the Rigveda to decide whether the first
syllable of pada's is longer or shorter than that of apa's 'from the
water', you can only find that they are both short. The opposition between
pre-PIE glottalics and non-glottalics is not reflected by any difference
in metrical behaviour in the Rigveda. On this basis there is no more
reason to perceive of the ancestor form of pada's as having a semi-long
[d(:)] than there is to assume the same length for -t- or -dh-. If that is
reason enough to speak of the first syllable of pada's as closed then the
language just has no open syllables with a short vowel, in which case the
whole question loses its meaning. As so often your strong opinions are
without any basis, and this time you have even pointed out where it isn't.
Well done.
Jens