Re: Fibulas Almgren group VI

> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > (Torsten) On the contrary. If Almgren VI is
> > found on
> > > the
> > > > Crimea, at Rostov-on-
> > > > the-Don and in the Caucasus in the kingdom of
> > Vani
> > > > that matches well
> > > > with a united Asir-Vanir people later moving
> > into
> > > > Nortern Europe.
> > >
> > > GK: Well according to Snorri the Vanir lived
> > on
> > > the lower Don and the Aesir east of them.
> >
> >(Torsten) No. According to Snorri, the Vanir lived on
> the
> > lower Don and the
> > Aesir east of the Don, not of the Vanir. They might
> > have lived on
> > different stretches of the river.
>
> ****GK: Again, that's Torsten, not Snorri. Snorri only
> states of the Vanir that they lived "on" the Don. The
> Aesir were not supposed to live "on" the Don, but
> "east" of the Don, and thus east of the Vanir.*****

'Thus' is George, not Snorri, and certainly not me.

> >
> >
> > >(GK)He knows
> > > nothing about a "kingdom of Vani" "in the
> > Caucasus".
> > > That is your theory.
> >
> >(Torsten) True. But remember that Snorri notes that
> > brother-sister marriage was
> > permitted among the Vanir, but not among the Aesir.
> > Herodotus thinks
> > that the fact that brother-sister marriage was
> > permitted among the
> > Colchidians and the Egyptians alone of all peoples
> > shows that the
> > former came from Egypt. The kingdom of Vani was the
> > old Colchis.
> > That's a pretty distinctive trait.
>
> *****GK: This only shows that there was no historical
> population practicing this on the Don. And is
> therefore an additional argument in favour of
> dismissing Snorri's fanciful account. BTW on this
> approach, there is no reason to seek the Aesir in the
> steppes "east " of the Don, since they supposedly had
> cremation burials, which was not characteristic of the
> populations of that area.******

As I read Snorri, Asgard would be placed immediately on the eastern
bank of the Don.



Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right, and Snorri
(or his source) made up the Aesir/Vanir-on-the-Don story out of
vanity. Why is it, then, that there actually are a people calling
themselves 'As' and a kingdom of Vani in the general vicinity of the
places Snorri ascribes to them? And if he had gotten these esoteric
facts out of, say, a Georgian monk in his years of study in Paris,
why does he then make errors of hundreds of km's in placing on the
map? Fraudsters are usually more accurate than that if they want to
convince.

> >
> > >(GK) As I've already said any number
> > > of times, you can't just pick bits and pieces out
> > of
> > > Snorri's account and reshuffle the lot according
> > to
> > > your liking.

I see. It is as with Herodotus: either you reject it wholesal or you
believe the whole thing? Is that what you mean?

> >

> >
> > >By the time of
> > > Almgren VI, the territories around the lower Don
> > and
> > > in the Crimean interior were predominantly Alanic.
> > So
> > > is that your most recent reshuffle? That the "Odin
> > > people" were cultural Alans? But what evidence do
> > you
> > > have for the arrival of substantial numbers of
> > > cultural Alans in Germany in the 2nd c. (there is
> > none
> > > for your earlier preferred date of the mid- 1rst
> > c.
> > > BC). Nothing in history and archaeology "matches
> > well
> > > with a united Asir-Vanir people later moving into
> > > Northern Europe".
> >
> > (Torsten) For one thing, there's the Sarmatian
> ring-pommeled
> > swords in Vimose
> > on Fyn, which you dismissed as a "stray find".
>
> *****GK: Quite. These swords do not prove your claim.
> They are not part of the inventory of an identifiably
> Sarmatian gravesite.*****
> >

Well, how do you think they got there? Flew? Should the Sarmatians
have built a city with cemetary next to the bog to prove their
presence?

> >
> >
> > >(GK) You keep repeating this, shuffling
> > > and reshuffling poor old Snorri. But when asked
> > for
> > > evidence, you seem unable to produce anything at
> > all.
> > > Almgren VI is not associated with a specific
> > cultural
> > > group. The appearance of such fibulae in widely
> > > different contexts is the best possible argument
> > > against some identifiable people migrating.
> >
> >(Torsten) I wonder what archaeological remains a
> migratory
> > avalanche would
> > leave behind, if it wasn't a number of similar
> > objects appearing in
> > widely different contexts?
>
> ******GK: Something more than scattered and
> disconnected finds which may be explained as trade
> objects or war booty.*****
>

If they were trade objects, they wouldn't end up with weapon
sacrifices in a bog. If they were war booty, they would have parted
with their previous owner in the vicinity of the bog.

> >
> > >When a
> > > people migrates it leaves signs other than just
> > > fibulae: gravesites with specific inventories,
> > > settlements (sometimes).
> >
> > (Torsten) Mention some Hunnic settlements in Europe.
>
> *****GK: The Huns were nomads. You didn't know
> this?*****
>
> (Torsten) Mention
> > traits about
> > Hunnic gravesite that allow us to identify them as
> > Turkic.
>
> *****GK: The point is that we do have many datable
> Hunnic gravesites, and a great deal of additional
> historical information which enables us to identify
> them as basically Turkic.

Let me see if I understand you here:
The Huns were nomads and therefore would leave few traces.
Sarmatians would have left many traces because they were not nomads?

>We have no "Odin people"
> gravesites, and no reliable historical information
> confirming Snorri's fanciful stories about Aesir and
> Vanir.******

It seems 'reliable' is the operative word here.

> >

> > >You are unable to provide any
> > > such evidence for your mythical "Odin
> > people".******
> >
> >
> > (TOrsten) In spite of your protestations that there
> is
> > absolutely no connection
> > between the two areas,
>
> *****GK: I don't say that there are "absolutely" no
> connections. That's what you say I say. I say that
> there is no evidence to prove that these fibulae
> demonstrate the migration of "Odin people" from east
> of the Don into central Europe.******
>

No evidence to prove that they demonstrate...? Your epistomology
confuses me.

Torsten